[limjinsutpz]

sry anyway good night

[FaMe]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

in before light says

"look at me im a kr and post in broken English everyone thinks its funny and i get mass up rep even after smurfing and deceiving everyone!"

Technically he wasn't the one deceiving everyone. Yes, he still did a bad thing but at least he had the balls to come and apologise to what is essentially the SEA community.

Quick Comments

	Cyanide:	apologising after everything laid bare doesn't take balls.
	breadfan:	I would argue facing the community who know what you did to apologise does take some balls.

[iM tgun]

Originally Posted by paragonFaMe

Technically he wasn't the one deceiving everyone. Yes, he still did a bad thing but at least he had the balls to come and apologise to what is essentially the SEA community.

He did much more than apologize. He's definitely learnt his lesson, and anyone who continues to pursue this is.. well, how should I put this tactfully..

A giant cockmunch.

Quick Comments

	mGGAequitas:	you come up with such colourful phrases :)
	FaDeHellfyre:	does apologising change the fact that he was involved in cheating?
	DM.MCZ.Polaris:
	breadfan:	Exactly how giant are we talking here?

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by paragonFaMe

Technically he wasn't the one deceiving everyone. Yes, he still did a bad thing but at least he had the balls to come and apologise to what is essentially the SEA community.

OMFG ARE YOU SERIOUS!?

He is every single bit to blame as Chobo is. Every single person that was knocked out of a tourny because of this guy was robbed of chances to perform, opportunities at prize money, and opportunities to qualify for different things.

I don't think I can ever understand this communities feelings towards the word "sorry" mitigating and changing so much damage that was caused.

Edit: I'm ok with tgun thinking I'm a giant cockmunch because imo "sorry" doesn't cut it.

Quick Comments

	FaDeHellfyre:	agree. saying sorry is good, but doesn't change anything. it's still cheating
	iM tgun:	+Rep for actually willing to give your own opinion.
	RicocheT:	Just cos ur sorry, doesn't make it right
	nirvAnA:	he knocked both glade and ninja out in seasl

[iM tgun]

Originally Posted by Peleus

OMFG ARE YOU SERIOUS!?

He is every single bit to blame as Chobo is. Every single person that was knocked out of a tourny because of this guy was robbed of chances to perform, opportunities at prize money, and opportunities to qualify for different things.

I don't think I can ever understand this communities feelings towards the word "sorry" mitigating and changing so much damage that was caused.

Edit: I'm ok with tgun thinking I'm a giant cockmunch because imo "sorry" doesn't cut it.

He didn't understand the magnitude of what he was doing.

Do you actually understand what he was ******* saying when we logged on (myself, rossi, jaz, rev) to talk to him?

He wanted to quit progaming because of this. Legit quit progaming, just because of this.

Are you ******* joking? He clearly didn't understand the consequences, and if you've seen the chatlogs I've been sent, you'd see that he was just way over his head. The second Rossi approached him, he instantly started trying to atone for what he did + didn't lie at all. The second he was questioned, he came clean.

You're allowed to have your own opinion, and that's fine -- that's something I respect. But if you guys go out of your way to pursue this more by contacting his team, I will be the first one to stand up and defend him, because it's very bloody obvious that he didn't know what he was doing was as bad as it is.

I'd support a ban (on him) for sc2sea tournaments, nothing more.

Quick Comments

	FaDeHellfyre:	punishment sounds reasonable
	HuT:	this guy gets it
	MooZfY:
	DM.MCZ.Polaris:
	breadfan:

[FaMe]

Originally Posted by Peleus

OMFG ARE YOU SERIOUS!?

He is every single bit to blame as Chobo is. Every single person that was knocked out of a tourny because of this guy was robbed of chances to perform, opportunities at prize money, and opportunities to qualify for different things.

I don't think I can ever understand this communities feelings towards the word "sorry" mitigating and changing so much damage that was caused.

Edit: I'm ok with tgun thinking I'm a giant cockmunch because imo "sorry" doesn't cut it.

Yes, very serious. I never actually said that his apology should/would change anything, and I agree with you that it sucks for the people who were knocked out and missed out on opportunities, but he never really had to come to this community and apologise, therefore it's certainly a nice thing for him to do.
And I don't think he is EVERY bit to blame as Chobo is. We have no idea of what Chobo was telling him, ie. things to write in to chat, channels to join, or whether he even knew himself what was going on (obviously from what he's said he had some idea, but did he know what the matches were actually for? doubtful)

[mGGDrGooSe]

How old are you SeoHyeon (just out of interest)? I think becoming an active member of the SEA community would be a good start to an apology. Be awesome to maybe see your stream listed here on sc2sea.com.

Quick Comments

sRDreaM:

his 24 I believe

[Peleus]

Originally Posted by tgun

He didn't understand the magnitude of what he was doing.

Do you actually understand what he was ******* saying when we logged on (myself, rossi, jaz, rev) to talk to him?

He wanted to quit progaming because of this. Legit quit progaming, just because of this.

Are you ******* joking? He clearly didn't understand the consequences, and if you've seen the chatlogs I've been sent, you'd see that he was just way over his head. The second Rossi approached him, he instantly started trying to atone for what he did + didn't lie at all. The second he was questioned, he came clean.

Firstly, obvioulsy I can't appreciate any 'mitigating' factors that may of occurred, or perhaps the appreciation by him for what he has done through chats with you, rossi etc considering I wasn't part of the conversation, my opinions are based off the info I have available to me.

Originally Posted by tgun

You're allowed to have your own opinion, and that's fine -- that's something I respect. But if you guys go out of your way to pursue this more by contacting his team, I will be the first one to stand up and defend him, because it's very bloody obvious that he didn't know what he was doing was as bad as it is.

I'd support a ban (on him) for sc2sea tournaments, nothing more.

Do I want to ruin his progaming career and force him to retire over it? No, although it's closer than you might suspect (probably feel different tomorrow). I absolutely despise cheaters, imagine your feelings for them tgun and times that by 2. If I wanted to ruin his career I'd post this to TL, clearly I haven't.

I was actually writing my reply when you posted, and my "are you serious" was more a direct response to being told that he "didn't deceive anyone". When it happened to be posted after yours I'm sure "Are you serious" could be seen as disagreeing you as well when I didn't even know you had posted.

Point being I'd like to see some punishment, such as lifetime bans from anything sc2sea ever runs again. Removal from team / retiring? Undecided / leaning towards probably not.

Quick Comments

Zealo:

pretty much exactly how i feel

[TABiggun]

Look guys, Seo did a bad thing for cheating, but I think we all agree that him quitting pro gaming would be a terrible thing.

I propose that perhaps he could give something back to the community such as some kind of free coaching or maybe an instructional video or something. And / or he could have practice games with people.

I'm just throwing around a few ideas but I definitely think we would all benefit the most from this experience if Seo trys to 'redeem' himself and give something back to the community instead of him being punished and thrown away.
Because of the time people have spent to solve this and also the opportunities people have been 'robbed' of it would only be fair.

You take and now you give back imo.

Quick Comments

	Frogmite:	food for thought
	Zealo:
	HuT:	excellent suggestions
	DM.MCZ.Polaris:

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by TABiggun

Look guys, Seo did a bad thing for cheating, but I think we all agree that him quitting pro gaming would be a terrible thing.

I propose that perhaps he could give something back to the community such as some kind of free coaching or maybe an instructional video or something. And / or he could have practice games with people.

I'm just throwing around a few ideas but I definitely think we would all benefit the most from this experience if Seo trys to 'redeem' himself and give something back to the community instead of him being punished and thrown away.
Because of the time people have spent to solve this and also the opportunities people have been 'robbed' of it would only be fair.

You take and now you give back imo.

We already have plenty of 'his' replays to learn from



But really, good idea.. welcome him in to the community and he can give back to us..

Quick Comments

Rage:

oh you!

[Nemo]

Why close all those threads before everyone can comment ? I'm only finishing my day work and I can only read all this stuff and post now.

No wonder I found him very good in the replay analysis. lol In fact I never thought of watching for any smurfing during those analysis because it was not what I was asked. Props to Rossi, Nirvana, Mafia and all those implied to have found this.

In fact in one of those 5 games I watched, he talked once in quite broken English (I mean, even worst than mine ) to Strafe asking a question : http://fr.twitch.tv/nemoulysses/b/320663846 (highlight)
"Sorry my eng is bad
Japan
Team Monkey
N°3
good game"

I thought it was weird but thought it might be some private joke or troll between Chobo and Strafe. Don't know all the stories between players. I'm surprised no one have raised that. Maybe they had the same thought it was just a troll. But now, knowing the truth, it takes a whole different meaning.

Curious that someone you have the truth under your nose and you don't see it. Life keep forcing us to humility I guess.

[Zealo]

two questions for seohyeon/kice:

how long has seohyeon been smurfing as chobo, and when exactly?

+ Show +

i'm assuming the answer is most/all ladder games, and most/all of the (very few) online tournament games played on chobo's SEA and NA accounts.

what is the motivation for doing this for both players?

+ Show +

money? a korean getting easy prizes from SEA only tournaments? as his clan mate, i've noticed for a long time that kice barely ever enters any tournaments (offline or online) until about a month ago. unless i'm mistaken, the latest MC is the first prize 'chobo' has 'won'. playing thousands of ladder games over 6months+ (to make that seem slightly more legit?) hardly seems worth it...

also, why use kice's account and risk his reputation rather than a smurf account or someone who isn't serious about the game? (still risks seohyeon's reputation/career, but you're doing that anyway). weren't the SEASL qualifiers 'chobo' made the semi finals in (lost to axslav and someone?) open to non SEA residents anyway? (IE, axslav and QXC)

did he want to improve his cred so he could make his fortune from coaching? seohyeon just levelling his account for him for fun/to be nice? i don't know how much money he made from that, i know when i've referred people looking for coaching to kice a couple of times he's said he's too busy with work/uni to take on a new student :S

or was it mostly just an ego / troll thing?

one question for several people on this thread:

why are you being so forgiving of seohyeon (but so harsh on chobo)?

+ Show +

essentially, their crimes are:
seohyeon - playing in tournament(s) he was not elligable for, using the account of someone who was
kice - letting someone else use his account to play in tournament(s).
(i'm assuming no one is calling for punishment on ladder smurfing)

if anything, i'd say seohyeon's crime greater, but that is purely my opinion.

(if i enter the next BSG using my friend's account and get caught, i'd sure as **** expect a more severe punishment than my friend)

neither of them admitted to it until some pretty damn convincing proof showed up, also neither of them denied it after they saw the convincing evidence.

isn't this exactly the same situation as when major smurfed into an SEA only tournament? were people really this forgiving of him?

ending his career would be too extreme in my opinion (but note that's the level of offence he thought this was), but this is pretty ******* insulting towards the SEA community. "banned from future SEA tournaments" isn't really a punishment if he was only going to enter them on chobo's account anyway. for tgun to suggest that notifying his team would be going too far baffles me.

i don't know what sort of punishments are appropriate or even possible for starcraft players who do things like this (in other sports they'd be suspended from playing for x amount of time i guess?), but there's no ******* way they should not have an example made of them

offering free coaching would at least give something back to the community they've damaged (both of them) i guess :/

I thought it was weird but thought it might be some private joke or troll between Chobo and Strafe. Don't know all the stories between players. I'm surprised no one have raised that. Maybe they had the same thought it was just a troll. But now, knowing the truth, it takes a whole different meaning.

kice used to say he was on team monkey from japan (and other things) in games to troll people quite often. i never considered it was to cover for the poor english of someone smurfing on his account.

Quick Comments

syfChadMann:

Whats is AsG's response to the issue?.. CHobo out of the clan?

[dippa]

I don't even think a ban on SC2SEA tournaments is the best option, given that it's obvious hyun was a bit clueless about the whole affair.

Should get Jaz or someone with conversational Korean to put together like a training video, have a korean professional walk through a build for everyone and upload it solely for SC2SEA. (Then link on reddit for maximum karma.)

Of course, banning him's easier, but yeah, the intent on hyun's part was not malicious whatsoever, and the punishment should reflect that.

[Strafe]

I'm sorry, but he cheated. His English might not be as good as some of the people from New Zealand, but even in Korea playing a tournament that has prize money under someone else's name is blatant cheating. So he knew what he was doing was wrong and there should be repercussions. That they don't need to be as severe as Chobo's is quite obvious, but he can't walk away scotch free.

I think a ban on Sea tournaments for a while and informing his team of what he did are in order. Any more is debatable.

Quick Comments

	iM MaFia:	the sheep man
	nirvAnA:
	Nemo:	Agreed 100%. He knew perfectly well he was cheating.
	NvJazBas:	**** off. but your right.

[TheGentleman]

Judgement has been passed, case closed.

Link to the punishment and incident summary: here.

[syfChadMann]

Well I think the big issue with CHobo is how much he lied - he was a SC2SEA TGM Coach! because of his ladder history obtained by other people smurfing. He perpetuated this for a long time, and used it to better his own ego and reputation. He asked hyun to keep up the lie and to play for him in the tournament.. Hyun didn't realise what he was doing - I don't think he realised the severity of the situation. CHobo gloated on the fourms about 'his' ability and charged people for coaching.

If anything, chobo has lied, cheated and deceived, whereas Hyun was the enabler who cheated. But when asked, never lied. CHobo is the cause of the issue and no doubt the instigator of Hyun smurfing on his accoun (I doubt Hyun asked him to use his account, but CHoBo probably offered)...

anyway - there is alot to write about this, but it is so late.. I'll add to it tomorrow.

[Zealo]

Originally Posted by dippa

Of course, banning him's easier, but yeah, the intent on hyun's part was not malicious whatsoever, and the punishment should reflect that.

not malicious? he broke the rules in an attempt to win prize money he was not entitled to, then tried to cover it up when nirvana got suspicious and did his test thing.

poor english doesn't make that ok.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

[PiG]

Anyone standing up for seohyeon I ask you remember that there is no way anyone could do this without realising it's very wrong. I don't care how apologetic he is once caught.

He didn't own up straight away because him and chobo kept on decieving nirvana by getting him to continue impersonating chobo and and answering perrsonal questions to trick nirvana and this community.

Sure he was quicker to own up then chobo once caught but that doesn't make him a saint.

Also I am still investigating replays for evidence of production tab and streamcheating because of his lucky interceptions and troop movements that made little sense on ohana vs ender, and the lack of scans except when his opponent goes mutalisks. I'm not saying he cheated but I'm saying the investigation is not over and he needs to be shamed for his actions. It doesn't need to end his career but it MUST be known to his team amongst others. Remember byun and coca not playing GSL for months?

Also what progaming career who does he play for?

edit: he has some small sponsorship. not really a career

Quick Comments

Peleus:

Agreed

[yongming]

Originally Posted by dippa

I don't even think a ban on SC2SEA tournaments is the best option, given that it's obvious hyun was a bit clueless about the whole affair.

Should get Jaz or someone with conversational Korean to put together like a training video, have a korean professional walk through a build for everyone and upload it solely for SC2SEA. (Then link on reddit for maximum karma.)

Of course, banning him's easier, but yeah, the intent on hyun's part was not malicious whatsoever, and the punishment should reflect that.

he has a sea account. if he had joined using his own account under the pretext that he doesnt know the rules, it is forgiveable. but he took the trouble to participate in a tournament that is not open to him, under another person's account. moreover he is involved with chobo in the cover up (the skype and game involving nirvana and rossi) in an attempt to obstruct investigation.

[Sent1nel]

Every single gamer on the planet knows what smurfing is, knows it's against the rules and knows it's a form of cheating. The more damning piece to the puzzle is that once the inquiry begun Seo himself actively colluded in order to prevent the truth from coming out. Irrespective of their understanding of the consequences both Chobo and Seo knew full well what they were doing was wrong.

I don't think there is any question that if key members of the SEA community had not taken time out to uncover the truth to this - neither Chobo or Seo would have ever openly admitted to their wrong doings. Chobo would have continued to deny many hard working legitimate players from receiving their just desserts, all whilst potentially causing irreparable damage to the SEA scene as a whole.

Having said that Seo should definitely keep playing. He needs to take this as a lesson learned the hard way. As far as consequences for him I'll leave that up to the people here at SEA to decide however as Dippa has mentioned, some "community service" might be a good way for him to make amends.

For me Chobo needs to have the book thrown at him. He instigated the mess we are in now and has caused harm to the image of an International player as a result. Due to his actions he clearly has a flagrant disregard for the SEA community. That might mean a complete ban on LAN events as well. You cannot simply toy with and potentially cause irreparable harm to something so many people here take seriously.

Quick Comments

	Peleus:
	inFeZa:	hey i just met you, and you just posted, and its a good one, up rep maybe?