[deL]

I don't think everyone who says those things doesn't appreciate the work the admins put in - but they are seeing the glass half empty in that they'd rather see something not done until it can be done 100% properly rather than settling for an "inferior" event just because someone without the proper time to commit is available or whatever. Of course what constitutes doing the event or whatever it is properly is up for debate, but thoroughly discussing it could possibly avoid a lot of the negativity where changing ideas last-minute is concerned, which could make the public feel like decisions are changed willy-nilly regardless of behind-the-scenes planning and collaboration.

Basically, if you think through the format properly in the first place and give everyone a chance to air their concerns (whether they come across as negative or not) and don't flippantly change decisions where there's still a large amount of uncertainty these kinds of things could avoid getting personal. If your admins have to work let people know and have some for of mitigation because people are going to ask "why did you bother?" when an event is run less than ideally because it was rushed.

Quick Comments

	SLCN.NXZ:
	TAriiChard:

[nirvAnA]

its more of the way things are being said del. different opinions are suggestions are always encouraged just that theres no need to be a dick or give people shit about it. all my suggestions were thought of and thoroughly explained, and open for alternation should a better idea come up. the most recent format is mostly built on scarecrows suggestions. And i made lots of posts with this is X because of Y and Z reasons, taking the time to explain my decisions for the format. Rather than "X sucks and therefore you must be a retard for coming up with X"

on our site we have had threads full of constructiveness and positivity with differing opinions then we have some that become derailed into attacks on the mods or just become needlessly rude and i'd rather very much have sc2sea be a site like the former rather than the later. and id like to think this thread despite all the negativity actually produced a better tournament format, just that, why was all that negativity needed in the first place? hence the bans

Quick Comments

	SLCN.NXZ:
	JoFritzMD:

[Maynarde]

I agree in the sense that if someone is unhappy with something, they are ALWAYS welcome in this forum to do so. It is a forum after all. I've seen it happen many times in this forum on many threads.

But you go about it a different way than flaming. DO NOT make personal attacks on people when you disagree with something they are say / trying to do, tell them you disagree and tell them why, it's not hard. It's how I would treat any body and how I would expect to be treated in return.

Glad to hear herocraft reviving, really want to see this go ahead

Quick Comments

breadfan:

[Delraich]

I agree with Nirvana. My view is that if you have a better idea: propose it, explain how it will work in a practical sense, say why it is better and then help/ join in to make it work.

If you are managing a team of volunteers the only thing you can really offer them is the pleasure of doing a good job and the pleasure they feel from giving back to the community. If, as a volunteer or any situation really, you need to push sh*t uphill or even worse get sh*t on for trying to help out, you really are not going to want to do that "job" anymore - which is a loss for everyone. I think that Nirvana is doing the right thing by standing up for his team.

Quick Comments

JoFritzMD:

[PiG]

I will most likely be playing for alt. If it wasn't for alt I'm not certain I would be playing and coaching Sc2 fulltime. Will finalize in the near future

Quick Comments

aLtShortizz:

Such a baller.

[BAD.BiGbiRd]

I have some valid input

Merry Christmas everyone, have a chill for a few days and relax and come to a conclusion sometime in the future

[AxSGRiM]

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

its more of the way things are being said del. different opinions are suggestions are always encouraged just that theres no need to be a dick or give people shit about it. all my suggestions were thought of and thoroughly explained, and open for alternation should a better idea come up. the most recent format is mostly built on scarecrows suggestions. And i made lots of posts with this is X because of Y and Z reasons, taking the time to explain my decisions for the format. Rather than "X sucks and therefore you must be a retard for coming up with X"

on our site we have had threads full of constructiveness and positivity with differing opinions then we have some that become derailed into attacks on the mods or just become needlessly rude and i'd rather very much have sc2sea be a site like the former rather than the later. and id like to think this thread despite all the negativity actually produced a better tournament format, just that, why was all that negativity needed in the first place? hence the bans

+1, the whole point of being a community is to be together! Merry Christmas, and it sucks that I have to give someone else reputation before I give more to nirvAnA again.

Quick Comments

TAEdgE:

gotta learn to share

[Nemo]

Well Nirvana (and a lot of people) vs TA again ...

Last time it happend I told you 2 things:
First, never underestimate the support you have from 95% of the people here, the silent overwhelming majority. Whatever the subject, in the end of the day, it's the guy that has 400 threads on this forum, that writes tons of arguments in the discussion, organises a ton of things, has done 80% of the replay analysis in TGM section, has written multiple blogs, has written most of the TGM Manual and maintained it, has started this site in the first palce, has organised the T-Shirts printing, the sales of the Korean licenses, has done the advertising for the site, that has welcomed new people here (look in New to the forum thread), has been nice to everyone whatever his level and given 2nd and 3rd and 4rth and 5th ... and 10th chance to people even if they have offended him personally (Del), has encouraged all good initiatives here (how many guys like Frog or Maynarde or (Crayzerg) crAzerk (sorry mate) or Pig would have done what they did here without you encouraging them permanently ?), and number of things I can't list here, it's that guy against people who only say "I don't like this".

People are silent but they are not stupid and know the difference between hard work done for the community and "cool attitude". I'm glad you finally understood it. That will give you enough self-confidence in this support to just brush aside destructive comments from a few and not overreact : "You don't like it but don't give arguments as to why?" "Be certain I'm very sad about it. Now let's go back to work." In other words "The dog barks, the Caravan just passes" (don't know if this proverb exists in English).

Secondly, I proposed to open a topic on "free speech" on SC2sea since that's the pretext some TA members were giving to attack you. That would allow the silent majority to express their opinion about it.
TA guys taken individually are just normal people, not better or worse than any other. You find awesomely nice guys among them (Riichard, Edge ) and great community builders too (Del - wait, what did I just say ? ) and good people. But they have that painful habit of becoming bullies sometimes when they act as a group. Certain don't participate but there are always enough "followers of the Alpha males" or enough who defend blindly a member of the group that has received an ass kick, even deserved, that makes "TA" in a whole look like bullies. We all have experienced it and 90% of people not from TA (and I'm absolutely sure a large part of TA members too), don't like that at all. A thread putting things clearly on the table would allow people to tell them and could change things deeper than just banning every month some TA members when they cross the line.
Frankly that chronic mini-war does no good to the community, we should solve it once and for all, and the only way to do that is putting the things on the table clearly. There is no community without you but there is no community without TA members too.

Now, Riichard, you're the boss of TA now, that's your job to make things right and to put an end to this war. They have elected you, now high time they listened to you.

Quick Comments

	FaDeBadger:
	Snx.FigJig:
	nirvAnA:	Thanks Nemo. It isn't TA tho, its just 3 or 4 people who all happen to be in TA
	TAriiChard:
	FvRsolis:	nirvAnA is the man
	TAkrunch:	Lead us riichard, We're yours to mould.

[crAzerk]

how many guys like Frog or Maynarde or Crayzerg or Pig

Omg Nemo just coined a new nickname for me

[TAriiChard]

Hi Nemo,


I probably shouldn't be typing this because I just came home from a big night out + I'm not a well spoken individual but I guess it's time to share a few of my opinions. I really don't understand where this "Nirvana (and a lot of people) vs TA" issue is coming from. If you go through the whole thread, "TA members" have given positive feedback to posts that in their opinion deserve positive feedback and they've given negative feedback to posts that in their opinion deserves negative feedback. I don't believe there has been an issue of positive rep trains on TA members or negative rep trains on non-TA members.

Can you explain to me how this is "Nirvana (and a lot of people) vs TA again" when it's really Nirvana (with a lot of people supporting him) having an issue with two members of TA... Only two and straight away you believe that the whole of TA (70 members) are ganging up on the website owner Nirvana. If you check the thread again you'll see that although there are disagreements with Nirvana, the majority of it is of us agreeing with each other over a mostly calm discussion.

In regards to the two members who I'll agree have stepped over the line by taking a stab at Nirvana, I do believe that Nirvana has overreacted to what Champi has said. Firstly, what Champi said was basically "you did the right thing this time which I have gained respect in contrast to the respect lost from the previous ideas that you have presented" but in a much harsher tone. But not so harsh that it deserved the following response by Nirvana.

Originally Posted by nirvAnA

oh wow thats good to know i have your stamp of approval. because im a salesman pitching stupid ideas to people 24/7 for my own personal gain and i finally "sold" one of my ideas.

jesus some people and their sense of self-entitilement is amazing. i dont owe you shit, neither do the moderators or admins of any of our tournaments who do this out of their own time. too many times i've seen people go retardedly ape shit when things dont go according to what they want (for instance the flak erasmus copped for PDCL) and they are quick to forget all the other stuff the admins have done or instead of lending a helping hand or suggesting something constructive act like a spoilt little bitch and make snide remarks instead of spending the time to type out proper suggestions.

We do this voluntary and are looking for the best solution because we want to make the best tournament for the community. We could have just made a bunch of final rules decided by ourselves it would be far easier and save all this trouble and everyone would still play in it anyway. Instead we went out of our way to do this to gather feedback - we are not your servants scurrying around "pitching" shit hoping one meets your liking and we dont owe you anything. i'm frankly very tired of people taking us for granted and the sense of entitlement some people have that lead them to make comments like the above is sickening.

What Champi said I believe was not directed at the other admins/volunteers nor did he say that Nirvana owed him anything and I don't see where Champi went ape shit..... He didn't go off at you with a barrage of abuse. He didn't throw a tantrum and swear at other admins. Hell, he even gave you a positive feedback. Ok I'm getting very very tired now but I'll keep it up.

Honestly... It actually sounded like Nirvana went ape shit at Champi if you read it again. In regards to what Pinder said, he replied to Nirvana's outbreak on Champi and sure I don't agree with his swearing and his not so friendly remarks, but I do agree with what he's trying to say. If ideas are bad they should be called out and discussed right? Isn't that what forums are for? Are we not allowed to "point out how dumb some of Nirvana's ideas are" in this "forum"?


So long story short Nemo I still love you but I do disagree with most of what you said. There is no TA vs Nirvana and friends and Nirvana, I believe that you overreacted and this is my opinion but I also do believe that things could have been worded better from Champi and Pinder which would have avoided this conflict.


These are my final opinions and I hope you all respect them.


Cheers,
TAriiChard

Quick Comments

	[TA]LoSt:	Agree
	x5.Revenant:
	Volition:	Good post. might be time to get past finger pointing though
	deL:	my liege
	TAavanar:	well written, i agree
	Nemo:	Point taken :) <3

[nirvAnA]

I have to disagree there. riichard you are a good leader defending your clan mates like any good leader would do in this situation.

tgun best sums it up what champi meant.

Originally Posted by tgun

It wasn't that Champi pointed out a stupid idea, it's that he went and shit all over Nirvana saying every idea he's had has been retarded (except that one). It was a very poorly hidden insult in a compliment.

people are smart enough to realise that too - look at the rep comments they are from all walks of the community with no affiliation. I don't want to turn this into a TA vs sc2sea because its just a 3-4 members of TA who consistently do this every single time a major event is hosted, not TA as a whole. Its the group / identity thing where people just naturally want to support their friends. Its the same how Revenant and Roz defended TargA in that Bielsko thread, they were being good friends supporting each other but its felt on a much smaller scale because they are small. With TA it sometimes snowballs out or proportion and opinions become magnified because TA is big in size. There are some members in TA who are absolutely great guys.

I also want to move on from this topic so people can start looking forward to the SEACL, registrations would open tomorrow and I hope TA participates and does well in all 4 divisions, they certainly have the depth to do so.

Quick Comments

FvRsolis:

[TAriiChard]

This leads to you having your opinion of disagreeing with me and me having my opinion of disagreeing with you which shows that we don't have to agree with everything right? I'm glad that you do agree that this isn't a TA vs Nirvana and sc2sea as it is far from it.


Also what Nirvana said, this topic in this thread should end now so that the community of sc2sea can look forward and enjoy the next SEACL. It's gonna be awesome as long as we all do our parts.

Oh and give us an add on Skype. riicharse so that we can discuss these issues more in depth privately if needed.

Quick Comments

nirvAnA:

i like this direction <3

[BaKaiNu]

I'm going to start moderating this thread so it doesn't go out of control. If you get infracted by me, its because you did something wrong. Now this is taking time away from my addiction, so I definitely won't be nice.

Quick Comments

	TAEdgE:	happpy birthday!
	TADivinity:	I dont know why you stepped in and said this after the above posts

[Xavi]

The main change of this league, moreover arguing points have now been solved, now that glade and tgun are not competing in this league.

can we move forward with an elaborated version of season 1? considering that was the main idea of this league in the first place i'm guessing same stuff as season one, except bigger?

[FvRsolis]

I vote myself team mascot for herocraft (Trying to ease the tension)

[NvPinder]

Originally Posted by BakaInu

I'm going to start moderating this thread so it doesn't go out of control. If you get infracted by me, its because you did something wrong. Now this is taking time away from my addiction, so I definitely won't be nice.

Take your infraction and shove it up your pee hole. merry christmas, goodbye sc2sea.

Quick Comments

TAkrunch:

If you imagine the picture of the poo is talking, its quite a charming post

[TargA]

**** da police

[nGenLight]

CBF Essay writing, so in summary:

Nirvana is fantastic, and has done SO MUCH for this community.

TA is an absolut monumental part of this community filled with great and entertaining individuals when you get to know them.

In my complete non-bias opinion, I do tend to see Nirvana trying to take the moral highground on several occasions, but generally tries to be very logical and reasonable. Whereas at the same time, TA can be a pain in the ass bunch of bullies when their group identity is threatened, but are actually pretty sweet/reasonable guys otherwise. We are all fighting on the same side with different point of views. I'm not going to say "Relax guys and let's talk through your differences" - FTS (**** that sh*t!), I'm a sicko and love myself some Nirvana vs TA threads. Drama, entertainment is what keeps the community alive outside of the game itself and is why I still drop by from time to time - I'm sure both TA (trolls anonymous) and Nirvana (mega shit stirer) are well aware of this very fact.

Keep the drama alive, and in control, you guys are doing a hell of a job, please don't stop.

Oh and if your a p*ssy that gets offended by TA, first up, grow a pair. Second, get off the net before someone like Deth or Pinder make you reevaluate your reason for living, uncle Nirvana isn't always there to save and cuddle you.

TArayray

Quick Comments

	AxSGRiM:
	TAEdgE:
	TADivinity:	haha what a great post
	Fadey:

[MooZfY]

Ahhhhh so much reading it's hurting my eyes !!

[nirvAnA]

I agree TA can be nice people, especially to each other and if you KNOW them, or you and Mafia would never have joined TA in the first place. I've heard this from many sources who stand by them once you get to know them well. This does not necessarily apply to outsiders though, and thats what makes the TA bond and group identity stronger. If you're in their group, you are treated well whereas outsiders are treated differently, theres that exclusivity. I understand there isnt the need to be Mr Nice to everyone but it doesnt hurt to let others know that good side of you as well. Btw i obviously dont speak for ALL of TA, just a few of the members involved in this thread. I personally like EdgE and riichard alot.

However, i disagree anyone offended by them = pussies, especially since these "pussies" rarely get offended by anything else. If i felt i was getting offended too often by everything, I would stop and think and re-evaluate my behaviour, because there would mean theres certainty something wrong with me. However, if it was not just me getting offended, but others as well, and by the same constant people I would be confidant in my belief that it was those few members have crossed the line in that instance and of course, naturally people got offended and not because they are "pussies".

Is KJH a pussy for being offended by zannoku? For those who interacted with Zannoku before can you honestly say you haven't being offended by him? I certainty dont think you are a pussy if you were offended cause the stuff he says is downright vile and hes just very offensive and confrontational whenever he speaks or has a different opinion. So no, I don't think you can ever use "this is the way I talk so deal with it" to justify bad behaviour. As for those 3-4 members i've talked about in this thread being in the same clan as them, you can rationalise and understand that they are actually nice people (to you and their group) and hence its only right to support your friends and let the world know they are nice (to you) but remember, outsiders are treated differently.

Update: For clarification, im not at all comparing Zan to TA i was trying to illustrate the point that offensive behaviour cant be justified by saying others are "pussies who unable to deal with it", as in the case with zan, it doesnt make any of us pussies, it makes zan offensive.

Lastly and ironically, i feel pinder should apply his own advice about "hardening up" to himself instead of rage quitting sc2sea and that parting shot left at baka was unnecessary, baka didn't even ban him out of respect for his past contributions, it was just an infraction. There are times when he has went out of line but he has also made many good contributive posts on this forum in the past and I hope he returns when he thinks about this and cools down.

As for the moral high ground issue, yes I tend to take it whenever i see the forum environment turn into something which isn't my vision of sc2sea and I will do my best to prevent this site from becoming the battle.net forums or cg where these behaviours are tolerated.

Thanks for your comments light and I hope to see you back for SEACL!

Quick Comments

nGenLight:

I like to take the moral high ground myself, appealing to the masses feel's good yo xD