[Bugalugs McScruffin]

Originally Posted by AtlasMeCH

If it is turn based? probably not as the player making the first move would suggestively have the advantage.

In a dancing sense? Perhaps...

In a real time sense where you both make your moves at the same time and dance... probably.

As joshboy said after you, chess is not balanced. o_O

But wait, it's symmetrical.

And symmetry = balance.

But, but... hmmmm.

Also, what does dancing have to do with Chess?

[AtlasMeCH]

Originally Posted by joshboy

To the OP, I understand where you're coming from, although I don't really agree with the conclusions you draw from it. One other thing you need to consider though, is what most people refer to as the meta-game, and the discovery of new strategies, builds, and new uses for/combinations of units. For the game to be designed in complete symmetry, it is implied that the game designers know and understand entirely from the outset how the game will be played and all the different variations that can be achieved out of different playstyles and matchups. Yet even today people are innovating with new builds and the game is constantly evolving. It's a little too complex to simply achieve basic inverted symmetry, unless you want to make the game less diverse, and in my opinion, more boring.

Well, I'm going to say then that it should AT LEAST be symmetrical and utilize an inversion principle to some DEGREE.

I don't believe the game can just be thrown together with out adhering to some kind of philosophy.

[AtlasMeCH]

Originally Posted by Bugalugs McScruffin

As joshboy said after you, chess is not balanced. o_O

But wait, it's symmetrical.

And symmetry = balance.

But, but... hmmmm.

Also, what does dancing have to do with Chess?

Chess is balanced if it's in real time.

[Bugalugs McScruffin]

Originally Posted by AtlasMeCH

Well, I'm going to say then that it should AT LEAST be symmetrical and utilize an inversion principle to some DEGREE.

I don't believe the game can just be thrown together with out adhering to some kind of philosophy.

I believe they did stick to a philosophy. The wanted an asymmetrical eSport. As far as you are concerned that is impossible, yet they seem to have achieved their goal.

Originally Posted by AtlasMeCH

Chess is balanced if it's in real time.

But it's not in real-time. And it's symmetrical. And it is not balanced.

[ToR.Arnor]

Originally Posted by AtlasMeCH

Chess is balanced if it's in real time.

Do the world a huge favor mate and NEVER reproduce

*EDIT this isnt in reply to the above comment but to all the comments youve made since you slithered out of your mothers birth canal

[AtlasMeCH]

It is balanced and it is symmetrical

and it is balanced because it is symmetrical

You can start playing asymmetrical maps then and start seeing how much people complain imbalance.


There as to be A DEGREE of symmetry for there to be balance worthy of taking seriously.

[Meatex]

lets look at baduk (also known as igo)
its a board game involving placing black or white stones on a board to surround empty space (territory)
In an even game black will go first - to offset this advantage white player gets around 7 points
Hundreds of years of testing has lead to the conclusion that first move advantage is worth 7 points or so and the game is balanced.

You are completely ignoring game design offsetting advantages with disadvantages.
Warping building doesn't require worker after the action - this is offset by needing a pylon
You are systematically ignoring good points people make with childish and ill formed rebuttals

Truth is truth

Just because you say it is so does not make it truth. You have provided no evidence to anything you have said and cry foul at anyone who disagrees with you. You are not welcome in this community if you are going to continue such blatant trolling/attention whoring
Check your attitude or leave

[Bugalugs McScruffin]

Hey, thanks Atlas, I'm now a Hellion.

As for the balanced because it's symmetrical, there have been massive balance discussions surrounding Chess for years and years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-m...ntage_in_chess

As people get better it seems like it's getting harder and harder to win as Black in Chess, though it's getting easier to force a draw. This would suggest that the game is not balanced.

Go check out a couple of balance articles on sirlin.net. This guy was the guy that re-balanced Super Street Fighter II Turbo when he created HD Remix (with the help of a dev team of course ). He has every balance decision he made documented, how they came up with the different ideas and all of the failed balance attempts as well. Street Fighter is an incredibly asymmetrical game, but he managed to achieve a fairly good balance. You'll notice that when he talks about different match-ups, he doesn't talk about symmetry or inversion, just about what tools each character has and what they need added or taken away to give the other characters a fair go.

[Bendy]

I get the feeling OP has recently taken a class in design and learned some new words...

You're speaking on such a high level of abstraction it's hard to comprehend what you're actually arguing.

[Tom]

I am experiencing deja vu with this chess discussion.

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by AtlasMeCH

If it is turn based? probably not as the player making the first move would suggestively have the advantage.

In a dancing sense? Perhaps...

In a real time sense where you both make your moves at the same time and dance... probably.

Okay - So now Chess isn't balanced -_-

Try Go.. that game is the closest thing to balance.

[Cyanide]

ZvT ZvP TvP ZvZ PvP TvT

This game is balanced 50% of the time. Close enough.

Quick Comments

xGKingdelete:

[Bugalugs McScruffin]

Originally Posted by Tom

I am experiencing deja vu with this chess discussion.

Sorry, Tom, I just thought it was pertinent to the current discussion.

[Satu]

Well, I think the main problem in this thread was that no one agreed with your points or the conclusion of the changes that should be made. But I stumbled across something that could possibly be a better change in the game than what you've said. Here, you won't believe it...

You Tube

You Tube

Giraffes are going to save esports. Thankyou Atlas, we will be forever greatful that you led us down the path of finding this most intelligent solution.

(Its a joke...)

[mGGDaedalus]

Originally Posted by FaDeMeatex

lets look at baduk (also known as igo)
its a board game involving placing black or white stones on a board to surround empty space (territory)
In an even game black will go first - to offset this advantage white player gets around 7 points
Hundreds of years of testing has lead to the conclusion that first move advantage is worth 7 points or so and the game is balanced.

dude I bought this game on iphone and I gotta say, it makes starcraft seem like a walk in the park lol, makes my brain hurt.

Also, back on topic, in many ways the mirror matches to me seem at least as hard (if not harder) to balance as the other matchups, which kind of goes against the theory of achieving complete symmetry between the races. Balance is not only about giving the different sides the same options, it's about making sure that each race has viable options to deal with anything thrown at them so that all races have a chance of winning.

To say that starcraft dev team threw together starcraft design with no philosophies in mind is both inaccurate and ignorant I think.

[Cyanide]

Originally Posted by satuspr

well, i think the main problem in this thread was that no one agreed with your points or the conclusion of the changes that should be made. But i stumbled across something that could possibly be a better change in the game than what you've said. Here, you won't believe it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atyl-vube9o

giraffes are going to save esports. Thankyou atlas, we will be forever greatful that you led us down the path of finding this most intelligent solution.

http://i.imgur.com/v8l77.jpg

(its a joke...)

nooooooooo jimmmmmmmmmmyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!

[Dox]

**** YOU INTERNET. Why do you give people like this a voice?

[syfChadMann]

Originally Posted by Dox

**** YOU INTERNET. Why do you give people like this a voice?

Everyone should be permitted to have an opinion.. this guy is just misinformed noob that needs to learn the game before he becomes a balance designer.

Quick Comments

Dox:

I don't think you realise which person I was referring to. ;)

[TAEdgE]

Originally Posted by vtx.DB_SenSei

Wow someone complaining with walls of text about zerg being too weak? You have to be joking me mate how much do you play this game? Zerg is OP.

don't be retarded

[syfMiley]

I don't EVEN know where this thread is going now.