[Benji]

Originally Posted by nGenLight

*Yawn* at the poster above me, continue to cry about the strengths of other races' without considering how you can abuse their weaknesses.

Benji, you know how I feel about Zerg. Bottom line is I don't think Zerg are underpowered, they are just much more difficult to learn and play. Hence you see relatively little amounts of Zerg players at the lower levels. & the little amounts of players seem to struggle because they don't have the understanding/mechanics of say Edge or Pig which is really required to even the field between Protoss/Terran.

I simply can't agree with that. Whats to say that Edge and PiG aren't actually ALOT better than anyone on SEA, its just that their race drags them down to your level?

Look at the top top top level of players, you cannot argue that players like Idra or Nestea are a step below the top protoss or Terrans (Idra's BW ability proves this), Their lack of performance recently shows exactly what the race is like at the moment in the metagame.

Plus, listen to all these Zergs talk about game balance, July, Idra, Nestea have all stated in interviews that Zerg is weak. Hell, even some top P and T players are saying the same thing.

[fur]

Originally Posted by Benji

I simply can't agree with that. Whats to say that Edge and PiG aren't actually ALOT better than anyone on SEA, its just that their race drags them down to your level?

Look at the top top top level of players, you cannot argue that players like Idra or Nestea are a step below the top protoss or Terrans (Idra's BW ability proves this), Their lack of performance recently shows exactly what the race is like at the moment in the metagame.

Plus, listen to all these Zergs talk about game balance, July, Idra, Nestea have all stated in interviews that Zerg is weak. Hell, even some top P and T players are saying the same thing.

Idra is a born whinger. He played the most powerful race in BW and sooked constantly. He loses at the top level because he is a dumb player.

Zerg results haven't been great to-date but the latest patch has clearly boosted their fortunes. The new infestors kick all sorts of ass, toss has had psistorm nerfed, and terran stim timing attacks have been delayed.

[nGenLight]

Originally Posted by Benji

I simply can't agree with that. Whats to say that Edge and PiG aren't actually ALOT better than anyone on SEA, its just that their race drags them down to your level?

Look at the top top top level of players, you cannot argue that players like Idra or Nestea are a step below the top protoss or Terrans (Idra's BW ability proves this), Their lack of performance recently shows exactly what the race is like at the moment in the metagame.

Plus, listen to all these Zergs talk about game balance, July, Idra, Nestea have all stated in interviews that Zerg is weak. Hell, even some top P and T players are saying the same thing.

I think you've misunderstood me, I'm not trying to say they are a whole lot better than anyone else on SEA. I'm trying to say that you really need to be at their level to even the playing field between the 3 races simply because Zerg is much harder to learn/play. This is what I'm trying to say:

Protoss/Terran with 50 games played > Zerg with 50 games played
Protoss/Terran with 2000 games played = Zerg with 2000 games played

I have mentioned in many different periods of how weak and limited I felt Zerg was for the last few months. However, with the introduction of this patch and the emergence Zerg's new fondness for developing new strategies even before this patch, I can see Zerg catching up very soon.

Even if Terran/Protoss are figuring out Zerg's new style, at least right now the unpredictability of Zerg allows them the opportunity for initiation/aggression (Baneling busts/Hydra drops) from a traditionally reactionary race. The meta-game is constantly evolving - There were brief periods when Protoss was the weakest race (with the pros like Tester/Genius whining too), but with no patch changes, suddenly became ridiculously strong. I am just saying, give Zerg the chance to do the same, especially with this new patch. But I can understand the cynicism, having felt what it is like to randomly die as Zerg all the time.

[UncleTom]

Originally Posted by fur

Idra is a born whinger. He played the most powerful race in BW and sooked constantly. He loses at the top level because he is a dumb player.

Zerg results haven't been great to-date but the latest patch has clearly boosted their fortunes. The new infestors kick all sorts of ass, toss has had psistorm nerfed, and terran stim timing attacks have been delayed.

I wish it was this easy.

[Makra]

SEA's top 10:
- 5 protoss
- 3 terran
- 2 zerg

Zomg irrefutable proof that toss is OP and zerg UP!!!1!1!!1

[fur]

Originally Posted by UncleTom

I wish it was this easy.

And I wish it were easy to micro marines against banelings. It's not the games fault my micro is crap.

[Hyperterminal]

Originally Posted by nGenLight

I think you've misunderstood me, I'm not trying to say they are a whole lot better than anyone else on SEA. I'm trying to say that you really need to be at their level to even the playing field between the 3 races simply because Zerg is much harder to learn/play. This is what I'm trying to say:

Protoss/Terran with 50 games played > Zerg with 50 games played
Protoss/Terran with 2000 games played = Zerg with 2000 games played

I have mentioned in many different periods of how weak and limited I felt Zerg was for the last few months. However, with the introduction of this patch and the emergence Zerg's new fondness for developing new strategies even before this patch, I can see Zerg catching up very soon.

Even if Terran/Protoss are figuring out Zerg's new style, at least right now the unpredictability of Zerg allows them the opportunity for initiation/aggression (Baneling busts/Hydra drops) from a traditionally reactionary race. The meta-game is constantly evolving - There were brief periods when Protoss was the weakest race (with the pros like Tester/Genius whining too), but with no patch changes, suddenly became ridiculously strong. I am just saying, give Zerg the chance to do the same, especially with this new patch. But I can understand the cynicism, having felt what it is like to randomly die as Zerg all the time.

I still don't understand what you mean by the first comment, are you trying to say that only a 2000+ games player would truly know if the Zerg are the weaker race? I think Benji have a very valid comment there, the skill of the player can only do so much with the limitations of the race they are playing.

I am yet to see in any pro Hydra drops play actually work, I have seen it attempted in the last month a couple of times but every time they have been wiped to the floor. Baneling busts have been around since beta its nothing new its just that pro's stopped using it because it didn't work. They are doing it from what I can tell because they really don't have any options left.

I'm not crying Zerg are the worst they get owned all the time because that isn't the case but the odds stack heavily against the Zerg from the outset and as long as you don't make a single mistake and your APM is through the roof etc etc.. then your going to be hurting a lot more.

[TAavanar]

Originally Posted by Hyperterminal

I still don't understand what you mean by the first comment, are you trying to say that only a 2000+ games player would truly know if the Zerg are the weaker race? I think Benji have a very valid comment there, the skill of the player can only do so much with the limitations of the race they are playing.

I am yet to see in any pro Hydra drops play actually work, I have seen it attempted in the last month a couple of times but every time they have been wiped to the floor. Baneling busts have been around since beta its nothing new its just that pro's stopped using it because it didn't work. They are doing it from what I can tell because they really don't have any options left.

I'm not crying Zerg are the worst they get owned all the time because that isn't the case but the odds stack heavily against the Zerg from the outset and as long as you don't make a single mistake and your APM is through the roof etc etc.. then your going to be hurting a lot more.

im pretty sure u r crying over zerg being the worst

[nGenLight]

Originally Posted by Hyperterminal

I still don't understand what you mean by the first comment, are you trying to say that only a 2000+ games player would truly know if the Zerg are the weaker race? I think Benji have a very valid comment there, the skill of the player can only do so much with the limitations of the race they are playing.

I am yet to see in any pro Hydra drops play actually work, I have seen it attempted in the last month a couple of times but every time they have been wiped to the floor. Baneling busts have been around since beta its nothing new its just that pro's stopped using it because it didn't work. They are doing it from what I can tell because they really don't have any options left.

I'm not crying Zerg are the worst they get owned all the time because that isn't the case but the odds stack heavily against the Zerg from the outset and as long as you don't make a single mistake and your APM is through the roof etc etc.. then your going to be hurting a lot more.

Think of it this way, when you begun to play Starcraft, it gave you an option to select difficulty: Normal/Difficult. If you picked Zerg, you have chosen difficult. It is way harder to learn/play but the more experienced/better you get, the "imbalance" starts getting lower and lower.

[Benji]

How on earth were we to know this? Initially we held out with the hope of balance changes, and now you're telling us we need to get significantly better to simply be on equal ground with the other 2 races?

If i was told that Z was the hardest race, and will require the most work to compete with, I would not have picked it. Now i've got to either tough it out and lose to players whos game knowledge is purely 'how to do an allin' or change race to T or P and spend months trying to get my skill to a level where I am back where I am today.

[nGenLight]

I know, it is pretty unfair in that sense.

[pikk0n]

Just a thought as to the reason why you have so many high level protoss players. Maybe it's just by luck that the BETTER starcraft 2 players happened to choose protoss as their preferred race at the start. How many of those high level protoss players made a switch from zerg anyway? I doubt many if any. Zerg may just be the least preferred race. IMO, it's not the race that's underpowered but the players themselves.

[fur]

Originally Posted by Benji

How on earth were we to know this? Initially we held out with the hope of balance changes, and now you're telling us we need to get significantly better to simply be on equal ground with the other 2 races?

If i was told that Z was the hardest race, and will require the most work to compete with, I would not have picked it. Now i've got to either tough it out and lose to players whos game knowledge is purely 'how to do an allin' or change race to T or P and spend months trying to get my skill to a level where I am back where I am today.

Zerg was trickier to learn in SC1 as well. Anyone who has played 5 games with each race could tell you zerg was going to be harder and it has nothing to do with balance, it's due to the 'backwards' nature of playing zerg.

Don't like it, don't play them. Switching isn't as hard as you think, especially since you'll already good knowledge of one of the match ups.

Also, given how easy the other races are you should be able to get super1337 really quick? No?

[TAEdgE]

Reading some of this makes my head hurt. Guess that happens when Santi posts in a thread.

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by Benji

Look at the top top top level of players, you cannot argue that players like Idra or Nestea are a step below the top protoss or Terrans (Idra's BW ability proves this), Their lack of performance recently shows exactly what the race is like at the moment in the metagame.

The only player that comes even close to MC in terms of skill is MVP. You absolutely can argue that in my opinion. It's no coincidence, to me, that they've won every finals since GSL3 - and I wouldn't favor any Z T or P against them.

There are pretty much no Zerg 'star' players right now, Nestea isn't that visible, though I'm hopeful for Losira.

fur: T was the hardest race to learn in BW, but also the most successful and powerful at pro-level (though players have said with 'perfect play', Z would be best).

[Benji]

Originally Posted by Xeen

The only player that comes even close to MC in terms of skill is MVP. You absolutely can argue that in my opinion. It's no coincidence, to me, that they've won every finals since GSL3 - and I wouldn't favor any Z T or P against them.

There are pretty much no Zerg 'star' players right now, Nestea isn't that visible, though I'm hopeful for Losira.

fur: T was the hardest race to learn in BW, but also the most successful and powerful at pro-level (though players have said with 'perfect play', Z would be best).

Nestea or July could be the greatest SC2 players, yet the fact that they play Zerg is enough that they cannot beat the higher end players like MC or MVP. Balance affects who is the best.

[dennistoo]

Zerg is not underpowered. They mass 200 foods easily and it just take 1 mistake to get your P/T army wipe out.

[TAavanar]

Originally Posted by Benji

Nestea or July could be the greatest SC2 players, yet the fact that they play Zerg is enough that they cannot beat the higher end players like MC or MVP. Balance affects who is the best.

it sounds like you really hate zerg and dont enjoy playing them, if you dont enjoy playing them or think they arent the best race then CHANGE RACES!!!!
when this game gets all of its expansions and is somewhat figured out then complain about balance

[Xeen]

Originally Posted by Benji

Nestea or July could be the greatest SC2 players, yet the fact that they play Zerg is enough that they cannot beat the higher end players like MC or MVP. Balance affects who is the best.

No.

I watch the games, and I don't see the same level of control or precision out of these players that MVP and MC show. The reason players like MC and MVP are so good is that on top of their strategies, they have absurd mechanics that let them just do more with any given unit - July is pretty inefficient in his army management (and always has been). Nestea had that kind of play when he won GSL2 (as did MKP, going very far on quite one-dimensional play), which is why he was so cheese-proof and mirror-dominant, but I haven't seen much from him lately.

[jason]

Originally Posted by toasti0

The biggest thing you will notice with the three races is if you wanna play like a pro you just copy there build orders right? This is great if you wanna play pro prot you just 4 gate than a move, if you wanna play like prot terran tlo you just 6 rax or 1 rax 3 factory or whatever and a move. But if you wanna play like pro july zerg you have to ??? oh wait you can't just make exactly 4 gate or 3 rax and push out you have to use your brain and queue each unit as you need them. This makes it impossible to copy a pro zergs strategy because all there strategies are made up on the fly.

The other downside to zerg is it's really bad ability to counter T & P units e.g. mutas are great but get countered by marines the first unit T makes. Ultras are great but get countered by stimed marines, banes are great but get counted by tanks or stimed marines, broadlords are great but get countered by stimed marines or 1 viking, hydras and roaches are great but get counted by marauder marines tanks with stim just incase. Zerg units are many in numbers but paper thin (cept mass roach).

I played zerg for a long long time and in fact fruit dealers wins were the main reason i switched to zerg as a main. After a long long while I decided to play protoss after only playing prot a handful of times my win ratio went up 20% compared to my months and months of zerg practice simply by making death balls 4 gate etc.

Now i'm in the process of playing terran and considering switching to T as a main they are very good if you can drop and multi task but due to the nature of mech being so slow the protoss death ball is far better at mobility being that colossi don't need to seige up to do splash dmg with ff to help out.

Limiting yourself to one race reduces your enjoyment of the game e.g yey another 4 gate game woot. If you wanna be able to say your the best sc2 player you goto play random that's why imo tlo is pro sauce, and if you don't wanna play random and think your race is unbalanced switch you'll have more fun learning a new race strats rather than nerd raging over loses and imba.

@ ur 1st paragraph
The thing is, you can't copy the micro of those pro players.

And u think all tlo does is 6 rax a move?

plz watch gsl season 1 tlo vs hyperdub.

Have u seen that genius defensive nuke?

Have u seen the genius comeback?

The calm play and brilliant decision making?

Yeah, you can copy their build, but not their micro.

You can copy july's 14 pool 14 hatch, but u can't copy his micro.

You can copy tlo's 6 rax, but u can't copy his marine split against bling.


@ ur 2nd paragraph.

Hold on, which one has more mobility? marines or mutas?

Mutas > go in and kill 5 scvs. Leave

Come back and kill more, leave

A few times of these gave u a total of 10 - 20 scvs kills.

You don't expect to win the game by mutaing all his scvs.

Also, if u go up to his main, then his marines go to their main, but u have more mobility, so u can move straight down to the natural, and his marines takes much more time to get their. EG on metalopolis.

Hold on, if u just a move ur army, ur gonna lose to tank marines marauders.

But if u actually do micro, EG flank him and run in zling to absorb dmage and kill tanks, banelings killing marines, then mutas clearing things up, then actually zerg is quite powerful.

Also, if u make broodlords, u DON't onlymake broodlords, save most of the corruptors and make 3-4 broodlords. 3-4 broodlords literally pwn if unhurt. And how do u make them unhurt? atk marines with them, and the tanks will kill the marines due to splash damage and friendly fire as they will auto target the broodlings. Then corruptors deal with vikings.


You can't just say a unit counters a unit. Cuz I can say marines get countered by roach. Marauders get countered by hydras. Tanks get countered by mutas and thors get countered by zlings, the cheapest and most basic unit in the game, counters one of the strongest mechanic unit of the terran arsenal.

Yeah, multitasking, easier said than done. Can u atk at 3 locations while making units and supply depots and microing ur drops at the same time? Exactly, easier said than done.

Toss is weak in early game, if u let them get a deathball, then it's YOUR FAULT for letting them do so. Put pressure and don't let them take their 3rd.

Exploit your race's mobility. Eg atk on the left and on the right. the terran mech has unsiege, and move to ONE point to deal with it, and they are slow as hell. Then all you have to do is RETREAT! and you would've killed the other undefended point.