[Kyfoid]

At this time, I would like to go back to my old from Fri, 21rst oct-2011
On Symmetrical balance with a simple concept and point.

Everyone agrees that starcraft is suppose to be asymmetrically balanced, but my point was that to exclude the concept of symmetry entirely from balance is quite outrageous. Asymmetrical balance is practically an oxymoron when you come to consider it closely.

What if all blizzard had to do was develop a simple pattern and formula that included symmetry to a minimal degree?

For example:

Race 1 and 2 share 50% symmetry on this unit with this particular role, the other 50% is asymmetrical while race 3's unit share's no symmetry at all.

And then, you spiral this pattern through out the races, which means the next step would be....

Race 2 and 3 share 50% symmetry on this unit with this particular role, the other 50% is assymetrical, whilre race 1's unit shares no symmetry

and so on...

race 3 and 1 share 50% symmetry on this unit with this role, while race 2's unit shares no symmetry.

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong but couldn't you still have a completely balanced game with 3 totally unique races?

My personal opinion is that blizzard doesn't implement something like this because it would place a degree of restriction on their freedom for coming up with unit ideas that work with Lore.

But guess what? I just think that it would mean blizzard would have to do a little bit more work....

Look at it as more of a guideline to follow for coming up with unit ideas...

But if blizzard actually pointed out where they need help for coming up with a unit that sort of functions like this, this, and this... the community could help them 10 fold because a billion people throwing millions of ideas at them would result in units that would make sense with lore...

Sigh...

Blizzard does the poorest job at directing and funneling community efforts to be productive.... they make us feel like we don't even have a shot at potential contribution.

[Kyfoid]

Omg, I just had a realization on the point of this new protoss unit idea.

So let's say that the role of the roach and the hydralisk was switched, the roach now costing minerals alone (more minerals mind you) natural speed on creep, slow off creep. Roach warren now costing gas, maybe infestor spells that are researched like a normal spell caster now.

My thought was that this protoss unit would be unlocked by the forge, cost gas, and counter the roach, but then I realized that I was just creating the same problem for protoss that zerg currently seem to have. That is, all zerg would have to do is make roach, and then protoss would be forced to use gas to macro with this unit (Not that it is any worse then the current cannon macro) that costs gas.... Protoss wouldn't have any gas left over, sort of like how zerg get screwed.

BUT!

With this more proper role of the roach, this new unit would actually be more of a macro defending answer to the zergling if protoss chose the forge/fe route...

So if zerg tried to be aggresive with the roach, protoss could still use cannon, but to answer against zerglings, the probe would now either warp in or morph itself in to this new defensive style unit that is good against zerglings, and would be able to push out and expand accordingly.

Now, you might think, add another unit to protoss that is good against the zergling when toss already have zealot + archon?

Yes, because it balances out if the probe morphs in to this unit... it practically sacrifices the probe, but it would have aggressive potential if it was proxy morphed.

But is this too similar to zerg? No way... I believe it is totally legit that there can be familiar functions between races as long as they are kept to a bare minimum...

And guess what? The linear queen production at the hatchery is a PERFECT example of this.

Even in lore you might say that protoss and zerg shared a common ancestor and that is where this inherited genetic function comes from!

Not that it has to be perceived like this, but you get the point....

And now, everything makes sense.... the protoss macro defending direction of forge first actually becomes a viable approach that they don't screw themselves on against zerg...

The best defense is a good offense...

Quick Comments

syfCabracan:

Linear queen production, drink.

[Kyfoid]

I also want to go back and make one more point about the trichotomy

Quality, Quantity, And Ability...

Technically, the more proper term in place of ability is Mode (Alternation) which comes from Kant's trichotomy Quality, Quantity, Modality....

So take the new battle hellion for instance...

We can see its modality for sure, but where is the positional aspect of it?

Should it not be able to transform back and forth between a stationary flame turret that spews out a higher volume of fire? Looses its mobility?

Maybe if they realized that their reasoning was wrong to give the battle hellion mobility, they could keep the battle hellion in the campaign, add the flame turret concept to the campaign as well, and then use this "Flame Turret" as a macro defensive concept for terran.... in multi-player

When in reality, the true unit that should have an area of attack and mobility should come out of the probe, as I pointed out.

[Kyfoid]

Ok, I think I've just had the grand realization to the point I'm trying to make, and it integrates the 2 layer trichotomy concept with the macro defensive concept.

So I'm wondering if the trichotomy concept might only work with the macro defensive methods for each race.

So for example:

If zerg's macro defensive philosophy was "Reactive Quantity" the only unit that this really makes sense with is the zergling.

So let's track back.... let's say that the roach remained the same as an offensive aggressor costing gas...

This would mean that the new protoss unit would have to be good against roaches instead of zerglings.

Zerglings, on the other hand, would probably be produced in quads for 100 minerals, and then slowly lose life off of creep.

The zergling might be viewed as an aggressor, but you might now see it more as a hit and run unit on bases, and a protective unit for zerg on the creep as it fulfills the concept of "Reactive Quantity"

In the mean time, you would aggress with roaches for the most part...

A problem that you might run in to is, let's say that you snuck passed protoss photon cannons with zergling speed, ok, so now your zerglings have so much time before they are going to die? This kinda sucks..

Well, what they could do is place an ability on the zergling so that it could be sacrificed before it dies, returning the minerals that you spent on your zerglings back to you...

Now that idea right there may have WAYYY more potential then Roaches not costing any gas...

And then how about the macro philosophy of the other races?

Terran: Positional Modality

Aggress with hellions, fall back to macro with stationary "Flame Turret" mode....

Simple enough...

Protoss: Aggressive Quality

So this new protoss unit that morphs out of the probe could be of high quality and proxy morphed... more aggressive then photon cannons obviously...

But I think pylon warp in can definitely be used as a macro defensive method already as toss can set up a pylon near an expansion and warp in units.

Anyways, I firmly believe that I have the right direction here, and any fool with enough faith and passion can stumble upon the right direction...

But the specifics? That's not my cup of tea, I would completely leave that up to blizzard because I think that is something for the sharp minded... not my cup of tea.

[TADivinity]

Lol.
10char

[Kyfoid]

I'll tell you what I really think about starcraft and the communities situation...

Honestly, the reason why there is all this flaming hate, whining, sensitivity, war.... is because deep down we know that this game could achieve greatness on a level that we have never seen before.... We feel it... but we hate our feelings because they don't get us any answers, and then these new guys come in that try to express their feelings of the game and we shut them down because we all know the track record of our feelings... they let us down time and time again at getting this game to make sense....

It's just a revolutionary, and when I mean revolutionary, we are just spinning around in circles, but for some reason these revolutions are not bringing us to the goal of evolution....

You Tube

You Tube

Tao Teh Ching 45

"The Master leads
by emptying people's minds
and filling their cores,
by weakening their ambition
and toughening their resolve.
He helps people lose everything
they know, everything they desire,
and creates confusion
in those who think that they know."

1-Corinthians 18-31

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”[a]

20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. 31 Therefore, as it is written: “Let the one who boasts boast in the Lord.”[b]"

[syfMiley]

What are you smoking mate, I want some o dat

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by Kyfoid

Anyways, I firmly believe that I have the right direction here

you don't.

Quick Comments

Kyfoid:

Shouldn't you elaborate on your comment first since it pointed out nothing?

[Kyfoid]

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

you don't.

And yet unfortunately some still have issues that they have to work out with themself, I wish you the best of luck with that.

Quick Comments

|Erasmus|:

care to elaborate?

[mGGAequitas]

don't you have anything better to do than to write pages and pages of garbage?

like go become a politician; that seems to be well suited for you

[Kyfoid]

Originally Posted by sRAequitas

don't you have anything better to do than to write pages and pages of garbage?

like go become a politician; that seems to be well suited for you

I bet your one of those people who sees garbage and an immediate sign goes off in your head that says "useless" am I right?

[Kyfoid]

At this point, if you believe that dead silence has more meaning then what I am saying, then at least let the current dead silence say one thing.... that you people need to do some serious Soul Searching and take some responsibility as a loyal Blizzard fan and customer by holding Blizzard accountable for these inexcusable short comings... The game could be so much better and so much more then this absurdly self conflicting concept of "Asymmetrical Balance"

Let's get this game worthy of the RTS classification "E-sport"

[Reere]

This needs to be archived.

What if, just what if, we look back after the release of Legacy of the Void and all of this makes sense??~

[Kyfoid]

All I can do his keep hitting you guys to see this from another point of view until hopefully something clicks.....

Look at zerg from broodwar where their macro defensive philosophy consisting of matching marine and zealot forces with sunken colonies.

Now that we have queens in the game, blizzard, in alpha or beta gave the queens this ability called "deep tunnel" to practically go in to "Underground Teleport God Mode" so that zerg could direct their new defensive unit toward the hatchery that was being attacked...

This gave zerg an element of a defensive macro philosophy... but not a complete and balanced one.

Why was this removed?

Clearly it was totally unrealistic and seemed like superior advanced technology that protoss would have, for one.

Second, like I said, it was not complete and balanced and so therefore unnecessary....

Zerg can just macro aggression/defend with roaches....

But... what if we decided to keep the sunken colony as zerg's macro defending approach, just like it was in broodwar? As it has turned in to the spine crawler and has mobility now, maybe it can work...

Well, it could possibly work, we might not have to change any of the units around as they currently are, but what we would need to do is basically change the spinecrawler to function like the lurker from broodwar. This rooting delay would have to be removed... COMPLETELY, because the spinecrawler would now be perceived as zerg's macro defending method that can hold its own against warrior forces in mobile battles.

It would be a great way to bring back something that has a lurkerish feel.

The main issue would be its travel method getting from base to base....

Going back to the concept of zerglings losing life off creep.... if the spinecrawler became zerg's macro defending method so that zerg could save more gas, would need to slowly lose life off creep, and instead of overlord creep spew unlocked after lair, would have to be unlocked on tier 1.

Also, it might need to be considered that the overlord would spew creep as it moves along instead of turning off and on, this way zerg could literally push with spinecrawler and overlord to block a new path where zerg would be able to set up a new base.

But it seems that the big hole with this problem occurs when zerg hits lair and gets overlord speed, suddenly zerg would have this mobile combat force that would be entirely mobile and consist of defensive buildings...

This is a problem...

So, it seems that they would have to change the method that zerg spreads the creep, I would propose that spinecrawlers would have the ability to spread creep, but only when they are uprooted... so you would have to keep crawling to the edge of the creep to spread it over to a path, defend it, then expand.

This is familiar to the "Creep Colony" concept from broodwar.

So now the lurker concept is back in the fashion of the spinecrawler...

Sigh.

But now let's say that the opponent gets around those spinecrawlers and starts attacking your constructing hatchery down this particular path?

This would be an opportunity to perhaps trap the opponent down this path by making more spinecrawlers and expand to a new location...

This idea doesn't support my hope for a "reactive quantity" macro defending method for zerg though....

[Kyfoid]

And to add a very critical point...

If the spinecrawler was intended to function as zerg's macro defending philosophy, then this would basically PROVE that there is a big hole in the protoss design when protoss decides to take the "Macro/Forge" approach...

There is absolutely no degree of mobility to the cannon what so ever, zero, nil, none...

That's why it would be completely necessary to add a mobile unit to the protoss side of things...

Would it consist of the probe morphing in to this unit with the freedom to do so anywhere?

Or would it consist of the photon cannon tansforming in to a mobile melee sort of unit that sacrifices its cannon range?

I think transforming the cannon in to a mobile melee defensive style unit at will, and then being able to fight outside of pylon radius is a neat sort of idea, a bit overly familiar to the nightelves in warcraft 3 but hey...

Perhaps that would still be too similar to zerg though?

And maybe it just wouldn't leave an aggresive enough option open to be consider an E-sport...

Then again, imagine epic wars of defensive buildings between zerg and protoss?

Terran has tanks, which pretty much makes this all acceptable right?

Ahh, who am I kidding, why am I wasting my time....

:P

[Kyfoid]

Ok, fine... let me end this with a picture to drive the nail all the way in.

Quick Comments

Fairyking:

Cybercore - Mobile Stalker

[ToR.Arnor]

a Forge is = to a Evo Chamber or a Engineering Bay

they are built to upgrade units are build static defense (Cannons, spore, turrets)

*Building a Tech lab/reactor is not a deviation from tech, unless you plan on dying to anything throughout the game

*Building a Bane Nest or Roach Warren is not a deviation unless you cross your fingers and hope your opponent does attack for 12mins

*forge into cannon is called a cannon rush its a cheese as it is, to give toss a buff to make that cheese stronger will break the game further

I cant believe believe i replied to this, I suck at starcraft, but even I can see your ideas are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off the mark

[Kyfoid]

Originally Posted by ToR.Arnor

a Forge is = to a Evo Chamber or a Engineering Bay

they are built to upgrade units are build static defense (Cannons, spore, turrets)

*Building a Tech lab/reactor is not a deviation from tech, unless you plan on dying to anything throughout the game

*Building a Bane Nest or Roach Warren is not a deviation unless you cross your fingers and hope your opponent does attack for 12mins

*forge into cannon is called a cannon rush its a cheese as it is, to give toss a buff to make that cheese stronger will break the game further

I cant believe believe i replied to this, I suck at starcraft, but even I can see your ideas are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay off the mark

See, I was totally waiting for someone to say this so that I could prove them 100% wrong.

The spawning pool unlocks zerg's offense and defense

The Barrack Unlocks terran's offense and defense

The gateway unlocks protoss' offense, the forge unlocks protoss' defense

Because of this division, it makes the point as plain as day and confirms my point as 100% accurate.

There is a missing Mobile Unit at the forge location and level.

The Tech lab is definitely a deviation when zerg unlocks roaches accross multiple hatcheries with one building

Terran builds individually for each barrack, and even shares the role with reactor.


Btw, your admin friend claims that zerg do not want to get roaches because they are not cost effecient compared to the zergling...

And you might say "Oh but terran must fill their bunker with offense" but that argument is cancelled out because the bunker can be salvaged and moved in to a new location and let's not forget repair"

The truth is, the forge is in a category of its own, not comparable to the evolution chamber or the engineering bay

[ToR.Arnor]

Originally Posted by Kyfoid

See, I was totally waiting for someone to say this so that I could prove them 100% wrong.

The spawning pool unlocks zerg's offense and defense

The Barrack Unlocks terran's offense and defense

The gateway unlocks protoss' offense, the forge unlocks protoss' defense

Because of this division, it makes the point as plain as day and confirms my point as 100% accurate.

There is a missing Mobile Unit at the forge location and level.

zealots arent defensive?

have you tried making them? theyre pretty good on hold position blocking a 1 hex gap.... or kiting if the unit has to be "moving" for you to count it

[Kyfoid]

Originally Posted by ToR.Arnor

zealots arent defensive?

have you tried making them? theyre pretty good on hold position blocking a 1 hex gap.... or kiting if the unit has to be "moving" for you to count it

Two words...

Shield battery (Gasp)

It seems to me that blizzard took out the shield battery because the gateway was unlocking an overpowered offensive defense for protoss,

What is missing is actually a unit at forge location and level.

Quick Comments

	ROOTPetraeus:	???
	ToR.Arnor:	lol zero relevance to my comment, im bored of you now, bye bye
	UncleTom:	preaching to the choir
	ROCCAT_Savior:	This guy....