[|Erasmus|]

Hi guys, round 9 of the PDCL is kicking off tonight.


This week we have the following matches being played:


Thursday 1st December: 8PM AEDT

+ [Round 9 Matchups] +

Imperial-Winter Nights. vs. Brothers til Death
Ascension Gaming vs. iTA Terror Australis.
FaDe vs. Team VB
TCP vs. Crux - ToR

First map for this weeks games will be MLG ICCUP Testbug
Please join channel PDCL at the appropriate time to arrange your games.

Bracket Link

Don't forget to post your results for the games each week in the news post (i.e. this thread) for each round. Easiest way to keep track of what's happening.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And after the results from Round 8, the table is currently looking like:

+ [Round 8 Table] +

Team	Played	Wins	Losses	Set Wins	Set Losses	PD	Points
Clan FaDe	7	6	1	16	7	9	18
Crux-Time of Rising	7	5	2	15	13	2	15
Ascension Gaming	8	5	3	19	17	2	15
Team VB	8	5	3	15	17	-2	15
iTA Terror Australis	8	4	4	20	22	-2	12
Imperial-Winter Nights	7	3	4	17	11	6	9
Brothers til Death	7	2	5	5	12	-7	6

[deL]

deL-kill coming up!

Quick Comments

|Erasmus|:

It's cause your name is Brendan... we are the gosu.

[VB_WhiplashJC]

Why is that table so different to the challonge one, and why do we play Fade twice? You need to make it so teams all get the same amount of points from games vs teams you've removed.

We probably won't be able to have full team tonight.

[VB_Rhuubarb]

Originally Posted by VB_WhiplashJC

Why is that table so different to the challonge one, and why do we play Fade twice? You need to make it so teams all get the same amount of points from games vs teams you've removed.

We probably won't be able to have full team tonight.

Personally I want another shot at Fade :P

[deL]

TA's match against ascension may be delayed to friday though I am waiting on confirmation with some of the players. I guess playing some of the games tonight and the rest tomorrow is an option too if necessary

[Zealo]

confirmed TA vs AsG delayed by 24 hours

[TCPNishy]

Have waited an hour for members of ToR/Crux's PDCL team and haven't heard anything... What's the deal?

[VB_Rhuubarb]

Fade d VB 4-2:

Thanks for the games guys, I enjoyed casting, especially after the positive support you gave me. If we make finals hopefully i'll play better though :P

[VB_WhiplashJC]

The issue with this tournament seems to be a clash of two things - fairness and giving people a game.

This is my understanding of how it's been done:

HT A and HT B have been removed for round 6 onwards: HT A with 1 win, 1 loss and 3 walkovers, HT B with one loss and 4 walkovers. After this their opponents have been matched together, resulting in extra games. This means that teams that got walkovers against (or beat) HT are at an advantage.

TCP has been swapped in for IPL... again, this isn't fair because you're playing a different team. (edit: on closer inspection it looks like these games don't count?)

Walkovers have been given as 0-0, so you're worst off if your team shows up, plays and loses than if you don't show up.

As Eras keeps saying, this was announced in the week 6 thread

Originally Posted by |Erasmus|

HT have given no response on both teams not showing multiple times with no contact. Their opponents will be matched together for the remaining rounds so reliable people actually get to play some games!
TCP (Team Carbon Pressure) have put together a team to give the opponents of IGL, who pulled out of the league last week, something to practice on.

(My emphasis)

This gave me (and others) the impression that these were practice games - the result didn't matter, which is why it wasn't brought up at the time. it looks like BtD and IWN didn't play that week anyway.

Then, in round 7 I asked;

I interpreted that as meaning we might play the team the other HT team was playing in a friendly.

Do we play fade again in week 9 then? If we do then is AsG going to play IGL(now TPC again? Do either of games count?

Which is a couple of pretty clear yes/no questions, to which you just quoted the above at me. You never said that the games counted, and they shouldn't. Why would some teams play twice in a round robin? That's no longer a round robin.

The idea of practice games for the two teams getting walkovers is good, but playing them against each other breaks the tournament.

Round 8 I have no idea what happened, because there isn't a thread that I can see. Results haven't been updated on the challonge page.

Here is how it should have been dealt with (and how it should be dealt with next season):

• If a team is kicked, then all their games past and future become walkover wins for the opposition. Practice games can be organised within the clans with byes if they want.
• The main thread needs to be continuously updated by the admins with results for the week. There needs to be a deadline for this. This will also keep the thread bumped, so that it's not a bitch to find when we want to know the map pool.
• It's a problem that the admins are participants in the tournament, this should never happen.
• Clan lists need to be updated when clan captains post changes... I know at least us and FaDe aren't bothering to post any more.
• Make it 3 points for a win, 1 for a loss and 0 for not turning up. A walkover is 0:4.
• No result reported => mutual walkover at the end of the week.

Quick Comments

x5_Potter:

Glad you calmed down and posted a proper reply.

[|Erasmus|]

Originally Posted by VB_WhiplashJC

The issue with this tournament seems to be a clash of two things - fairness and giving people a game.

This is my understanding of how it's been done:

HT A and HT B have been removed for round 6 onwards: HT A with 1 win, 1 loss and 3 walkovers, HT B with one loss and 4 walkovers. After this their opponents have been matched together, resulting in extra games. This means that teams that got walkovers against (or beat) HT are at an advantage.

TCP has been swapped in for IPL... again, this isn't fair because you're playing a different team. (edit: on closer inspection it looks like these games don't count?)

Walkovers have been given as 0-0, so you're worst off if your team shows up, plays and loses than if you don't show up.

As Eras keeps saying, this was announced in the week 6 thread


(My emphasis)

This gave me (and others) the impression that these were practice games - the result didn't matter, which is why it wasn't brought up at the time. it looks like BtD and IWN didn't play that week anyway.

Then, in round 7 I asked;


Which is a couple of pretty clear yes/no questions, to which you just quoted the above at me. You never said that the games counted, and they shouldn't. Why would some teams play twice in a round robin? That's no longer a round robin.

The idea of practice games for the two teams getting walkovers is good, but playing them against each other breaks the tournament.

Round 8 I have no idea what happened, because there isn't a thread that I can see. Results haven't been updated on the challonge page.

Here is how it should have been dealt with (and how it should be dealt with next season):

• If a team is kicked, then all their games past and future become walkover wins for the opposition. Practice games can be organised within the clans with byes if they want.
• The main thread needs to be continuously updated by the admins with results for the week. There needs to be a deadline for this. This will also keep the thread bumped, so that it's not a bitch to find when we want to know the map pool.
• It's a problem that the admins are participants in the tournament, this should never happen.
• Clan lists need to be updated when clan captains post changes... I know at least us and FaDe aren't bothering to post any more.
• Make it 3 points for a win, 1 for a loss and 0 for not turning up. A walkover is 0:4.
• No result reported => mutual walkover at the end of the week.

So many competitions like this (where you have x rounds) result in teams being matched twice. It's incredibly standard... I've never heard anyone complain about it anywhere else before.

But in any case, it does not change the final results at all. VB and FaDe finish 1-2, and crux-ToR and AsG finish 3-4.

I did not realise I had to make sure I was explicit about what officialy scheduled games counted, and which ones didn't.

Clan lists have been updated when captains post changes... as you said, you're not posting them, so I can't update them. Make sure to post them, so there's a record to change them. I have a million and one people messaging me every thursday about everything.

Walkovers are 0-0 because noone played any games. I've never seen a football game award a 5-0 win to one team in a walkover. And in the other leagues, there have been many complaints that 4-0 for a walkover is just silly, they are just too beneficial to teams getting them even though they didn't win any games.

Just my 2c. Feedback is good.

[Zealo]

Originally Posted by VB_WhiplashJC

Here is how it should have been dealt with (and how it should be dealt with next season):

If a team is kicked, then all their games past and future become walkover wins for the opposition. Practice games can be organised within the clans with byes if they want.
agreed
The main thread needs to be continuously updated by the admins with results for the week. There needs to be a deadline for this. This will also keep the thread bumped, so that it's not a bitch to find when we want to know the map pool.
agreed
It's a problem that the admins are participants in the tournament, this should never happen.
i disagree, doesn't cause any problems i see
Clan lists need to be updated when clan captains post changes... I know at least us and FaDe aren't bothering to post any more.
i didn't realise teams were allowed to change the roster that they posted at the start of the season?

i'm really enjoying and learning a lot from this league and can't wait for next season

[Zealo]

ack the (red) tags on this forum ruin posts

[Frogmite]

Even if it doesn't really "count", here is the result of ToR vs TCP. Thanks ToR to play the games with us, it'll help us to prepare for coming season

TCP 4 - 2 ToR

Kreamy > lolwut
Kreamy > plasmageo
Kreamy < Durrr
Kweeeeeeers < Durrr
FORFEIT < Durrr
FORFEIT < Durrr

Thanks to Word for posting the results in our thread

[Ruscour]

AsG 4 - 0 TA, gg mothership in the last game was baller

[Zealo]

in the AsG vs TA match it came up that the map pool is:

1. MLG Xel'Naga Caverns by HemLock
2. MLG Metalopolis by HemLock
3. MLG The Shattered Temple by HemLock
4. MLG Shakuras Plateau by HemLock
5. GSL Daybreak by HemLock
6. GSL Tal'Darim Altar by wonderland
7. IPL4 Antiga Shipyards by TPW
8. Abyssal Caverns
9. MLG ICCUP Testbug by HemLock

it was TA's turn to choose map, so they hosted on
6. GSL Tal'Darim Altar by wonderland
at which point everyone discovered this is the original GSL version, and much nostalgia ensued (OMG there's an extra patch of highground next between the natural and the ramp! and look how narrow the ramp is! and there's random protoss statues in the middle! etc)

point is, can this be changed to Tal'Darim LE for the finals?

[VB_Ice]

A forfeit with a score of 0-0 can potentially cause teams to manipulate the system in their favour. For example, if one team is on +1 points difference and the other on -4 with one game to go and the former needs only a win to progress then they may decide to forfeit with a score of 0-0 to remain on +1 and thus the latter team cannot progress even if they win at least 4-0. With a 4-0 walkover the first team mentioned above must play and risk their spot in the finals if they lose the game and lost points so they may end up on -2 if they lose 4-1. It hasn't happened but it may create situations like the above where people prefer forfeiting and getting 0-0 so they don't harm their points difference.

And for arguments' sake I don't think I've ever seen another sport use a 0-0 score for a forfeited game. For a football game (assuming this is the "soccer" kind) the FIFA standard for a forfeited game is to record a 3-0 score. For other sports, the same or similar applies such as baseball which awards a 9-0 score due to the number of innings there are in a game.

And in a round robin teams should play each team the same number of times as they play the others in order to make things fair for all participants.

[VB_WhiplashJC]

Please point out a round robin tournament where halfway through the schedule is changed so that some teams play each other twice.

Clan lists have not been updated.

Ice posted on the 11th of November to add a player, he's not there. Sedz posted some additions for AsG, they aren't there. The FaDe captain told us they added players (probably to in a weekly thread), they aren't there.

If you don't like 4:0 walkovers, then give points for losses.