[GFree]

First off, a little intro. I'm just in the Bronze leagues, I panic, I'm slow to react and sometimes I don't scout enough. However, I love watching replays and I like to believe in scouting and positioning. So I'll be posting some reports regarding my opinions on things. Would love feedback regarding my points. This was prewritten on another forum but I didn't get any good feedback (I got trolled).

Report 0001 - Impacts of a faster Hallucination.

Recently with the PTR 1.2 patch, it's fairly obvious Blizzard wants to have Hallucination used in regular play, so I thought I'd take a careful look into what their proposed changes would mean for the metagame.

First off, let's take a look at Hallucination as an ability, costing 50 more energy than Forcefield, and 25 more energy than Guardian Shield, not many Protoss players feel there are many situations where Hallucination would be a worthy tradeoff for the other 2 spells that the Sentry is capable of.

Hallucination has many applications on paper, so let's take a look at a few.

Uses

Scouting: Simply because you can make (a hallucination of) the fastest unit in the Protoss arsenal, the Phoenix, you can easily fly over your opponent's base early on to get a good scout. Now the benefit of this is that the Protoss player gets a chance to make a more informed decision about how he/she wants to approach the mid-game, whether to expand, tech or attack. However, I feel that for this to be effective, one would need to research Hallucination before Warpgate or you'd be behind in terms of your mid-game strategy. The timing of the first Sentry would probably be the most crucial issue to address because we need to think about being safe against any early pushes. More than likely, you'd make a few more units before Hallucination research starts, and it's equally likely that it'd be mostly Zealots. The 100/100 cost means that unless you make another Zealot, Hallucination will still wait until after a few Stalkers, which is an interesting point in itself because you want to line up the completion of the research with at least one Sentry being able to cast Hallucination immediately so you'd need to cram a Sentry in at some point early on to save up energy. It is possible we might see Hallucination being used more often though in 1.2, possibly followed up with 3 Gates, into expand or tech, but unlikely, any offense. However, I don't think this will necessarily be popular, but it will give Protoss another option to open with.

Meatshields: Hallucinations take 200% damage (though Immortals DO have Hardened Shell so they take 20 capped) so in most situations I feel the energy would be better spent on Forcefields and Guardian Shields. However, as players understand the game better, we may see people abusing target priority with Hallucinations.

Spotting: Since we can Hallucinate flying units, it is possible to use Hallucination well with Blink Stalkers for early aggressive options. Would probably only be effective in the PvT and PvP matchup because the current metagame tends to not have spotting structures around their bases due to Collosi and Observers giving vision later on for large Protoss armies to take out buildings in an attempt to bait a confrontation. However, this early aggression would be very gas heavy, so assuming it's even possible, you wouldn't have many Sentries if your opponent attempted any early aggression. As for late game high ground spotting, we have better options, Observers, Collosi and if the 1.2 patch is to remain the same, Phoenixes and Void Rays, as they might see more use.

So now that we've looked at the possible benefits of Hallucination, let's look at it's downsides.

Tradeoff

Smaller Army: Without Warpgate tech, units will take a much longer time to be produced (10 seconds each if I'm not mistaken). Less units plus the extra gas used up (Hallucination would probably only be significant early unless people are using them as meatshields) that reduces our Sentry count means that the Protoss player might end up very vulnerable to early pressure. More gateways might make up for this, but it may not hold off very early timing pushes.

Reinforcement: Aggression is less likely to be sustainable since units take longer to be produced and still need to travel. However, this should only be a problem early on. Warpgate would be researched ASAP.

Late Tech: This is crucial. We might end up going for a more 'effective' tech path, but the combination of a smaller army due to lack of Warpgate and the lack of Sentries due to all the teching (Hallucination + Getting your T2 upon scouting) might prove fatal.


My conclusion: I still think Warpgate would be the preferred opening but early Blink Stalker/Hallucination aggression might punish Terrans who go for fast Factory openings and might give more aggressive openings against Toss which can delay Collosi tech, and later on, be supported by Stargate units (if your opponent went for more Immortals) or Robo units (if your opponent went for more Gateway compositions to defend). Generally I don't feel this would affect the PvZ matchup as Protoss usually want to be able to be constantly aggressive against Zerg.

So yeah, feel free to give me your opinions on my points. Be gentle =p

[NvPinder]

In PvZ hallu is already incredibly useful as a scouting purpose. Next to no one is opening 1/2/3 gate robo in pvz (it's a pretty hilariously bad opening unless you're doing a really 1-base oriented timing push), so the hallu scout gets up (even started after warpgate finishes), much quicker than you'd usually have an observer, couple that with a sentry heavy build from 3 gates and you have plenty of left over minerals to expand, as well as awesome scouting.

The pheonix scout is simply put amazing and 10x better than an observer (with the one lacking feature being detection against burrow), as it's more or less free once u have a ton of sentries (which you should anyway by default, as compared to the 50/100 cost of an observer, in a matchup where gas is EVERYTHING), it's incredibly quick allowing much more mobile scouting of nat -> main -> army type patterns (this also makes it great for scouting every expo on the map very quick for thrids, as compared to the observer that is slow as dicks), and it doesnt matter much if it dies (compared to an obs, of which you need to wait the build time of another, it costs you a ton of gas, and its slow as anything to actually arrive in their base again, at which point its so fkn slow and weak its likley to just get overseer + queen sniped again).

You mention that protoss is suppose to be agressive against zerg most of the time anyway, which is for the most part true, but if zerg has a ton of speedlings or and army that can just straight up meet yours on the middle of the map and crush yours, the last thing you want to do is push outside of your choke, having hallu to scout out his army and rule out these possibilities turns the situation, rather from your 'feel' of where the zergs army is at and if its safe to put some pressure on to force units over drones, to actually seeing his drone count, tech speed and army count+composition to make really nice, informed choices on whether or not pushing out here to pressure is the right choice or not.

Basically i dont think the quicker hallu timing will change PvZ that dramatically, but it will give 3 gate expo about 30 seconds earlier scouting, which might actually mean rather than the blind pressure you are semi-forced into using in the first opening minutes off 3 gate, you can wait for that scout timing and play it 100% of information rather that game sense, which i feel will actually strengthen the build quite a bit.

[GFree]

In the current standard Hallucination can get up before an Observer? Hallucination takes 110 seconds before Chronoboost, Observers take 40 seconds + 45 seconds (Robotics Facility warp in time). If Halucination can be completed before an Observer gets out isn't it more likely that the Robotics Facility was delayed? Or is it more of the metagame in PvZ that people go for an Immortal first before the Observer? Thanks

I love the Phoenix scout but in PvT and PvP there are still some threat of early cloaked units. PvZ it's a lot more viable but I'm usually concerned about Roach aggression early on. Do you think these concerns are still valid?

Regarding the 3rd paragraph, I have a lot of trouble knowing how to put aggression so the Phoenix scout will definitely help. Although, don't we want them to make more Speedlings? So, just curious, wouldn't it be more of a positioning issue? Or perhaps just an issue of players (like me =p) committing too much to an attack? If we walk up to the Zerg's base with a decent sized army, he can't afford to not make units right?

So in you opinion, Hallucination will give 3 gate expands an advantage. Hallucination after Warpgate right? That might be true, makes sense, though I think Hallucination could work well with Blink Stalkers into DTs if the Protoss wants to be aggressive.

What about the other matchups? Also, how'd did you find my writing? Was it too wordy? =/

[NvPinder]

In the current standard Hallucination can get up before an Observer? Hallucination takes 110 seconds before Chronoboost, Observers take 40 seconds + 45 seconds (Robotics Facility warp in time). If Halucination can be completed before an Observer gets out isn't it more likely that the Robotics Facility was delayed? Or is it more of the metagame in PvZ that people go for an Immortal first before the Observer? Thanks

I was more saying because getting the robo off 1 base is so unpopular because in the current state of the matchup its just straight up not an effective way to open, you're going to have hallu much earlier than you would get an observer opening gateways into an expansion before robo etc.

I love the Phoenix scout but in PvT and PvP there are still some threat of early cloaked units. PvZ it's a lot more viable but I'm usually concerned about Roach aggression early on. Do you think these concerns are still valid?

I dont get exactly what u mean here, spending 100/100 on hallucinate wont really make you THAT much weaker against roaches, and the scouting of their base to see if they're continuing that roach production or if they're switching back to drones and prepare accordingly.

Regarding the 3rd paragraph, I have a lot of trouble knowing how to put aggression so the Phoenix scout will definitely help. Although, don't we want them to make more Speedlings? So, just curious, wouldn't it be more of a positioning issue? Or perhaps just an issue of players (like me =p) committing too much to an attack? If we walk up to the Zerg's base with a decent sized army, he can't afford to not make units right?

yeah, we want them to make those speedlings, the thing is we dont know if they made them, and if they have them made sitting on the middle of the map and you move out and get your army absolutely CRUSHED. You're suddenly in a shitload of trouble as the zerg is completely safe to pump drones for the next 5 minutes with absolutely no downside. Whereas if you can scout that he has that army, you have no need to pressure, can sit back and build up more army without risking yours, and basically the bigger the army's get, the less effective speedlings become. (for an extreme example: 10 speedlings vs 3 stalkers, 2 sentries could be a pretty even fight unless you have really really really good FF's, whereas 100 speedlings vs 30 stalkers and 20 sentries will be a ton more favourable for protoss)


And yeah, you wanna get hallu right as warpgate ends.

[GFree]

Hey that'd be a pretty cute thing to see in a game, your suggestion of tech misdirection.

Originally Posted by JPMoney

I was more saying because getting the robo off 1 base is so unpopular because in the current state of the matchup its just straight up not an effective way to open, you're going to have hallu much earlier than you would get an observer opening gateways into an expansion before robo etc.

2 Gate Robo doesn't happen anymore? O.o Against Zerg I would aim for an early expand but I usually get Robo before expanding against Terran...

Originally Posted by JPMoney

I dont get exactly what u mean here, spending 100/100 on hallucinate wont really make you THAT much weaker against roaches, and the scouting of their base to see if they're continuing that roach production or if they're switching back to drones and prepare accordingly.

I was referring to the possible lack of Sentries caused by spendign that 50 gas earlier making any very early Roach push more likely to be fatal. Is that not really a concern?

Originally Posted by JPMoney

yeah, we want them to make those speedlings, the thing is we dont know if they made them, and if they have them made sitting on the middle of the map and you move out and get your army absolutely CRUSHED. You're suddenly in a shitload of trouble as the zerg is completely safe to pump drones for the next 5 minutes with absolutely no downside. Whereas if you can scout that he has that army, you have no need to pressure, can sit back and build up more army without risking yours, and basically the bigger the army's get, the less effective speedlings become. (for an extreme example: 10 speedlings vs 3 stalkers, 2 sentries could be a pretty even fight unless you have really really really good FF's, whereas 100 speedlings vs 30 stalkers and 20 sentries will be a ton more favourable for protoss)


And yeah, you wanna get hallu right as warpgate ends.

I see. How about just walking up with our ball, see the Larvae morphing in at the Natural and then pull back? =p Yeah I see how Hallucination will help though. Would really give a safe, early scouting option.

[NvPinder]

2 Gate Robo doesn't happen anymore? O.o Against Zerg I would aim for an early expand but I usually get Robo before expanding against Terran...

Everything i said was only relatively to PvZ, 1,2 or 3 gate robo are all prefectly fine opening PvT.

I was referring to the possible lack of Sentries caused by spendign that 50 gas earlier making any very early Roach push more likely to be fatal. Is that not really a concern?

It's never really been that much of a concern for me, if you try to get away with a sneakier to early expansion (read: me every single game), you can run into trouble, but holding your ramp shouldnt be a problem what so ever.

I see. How about just walking up with our ball, see the Larvae morphing in at the Natural and then pull back? =p Yeah I see how Hallucination will help though. Would really give a safe, early scouting option.

Yeah but my point is, if they already built the speedlings, which isnt at all uncommon, and kill your ball in the middle of the map, you're instantly in a fair bit of trouble.

[Apth]

You've written that really well, it was easy and enjoyable to read. I like the way you worked through it methodically. Good work. I might consider making the paragraph headings in bold just to make it a little less wall-of-texty.

One of the benefits of Hallucination I think people should consider is Tech Misdirection.

If you build a Stargate, and your opponent scouts your Stargate, he's going to be expecting things to be coming out of your Stargate. If you hallucinate a bunch of Phoenixes, and then rally all the Void Rays you're making somewhere sneaky, your opponent won't be expecting them.

Similarly if you hide your Robotics Support Bay (or whatever building you nasty Protoss spam Collossi out of) somewhere and Hallucinate a bunch of Immortals, you're opponent will assume Collossi aren't coming, because he thinks your Robotics Facility is being used to pump out Immortals.

[GFree]

Originally Posted by Apth

You've written that really well, it was easy and enjoyable to read. I like the way you worked through it methodically. Good work. I might consider making the paragraph headings in bold just to make it a little less wall-of-texty.

Done thanks for the tip

[GFree]

Ah okay. Thanks then.