[SiF]

Spanishiwa, we all know him; he came out of nowhere and into the spot light with his "innovative" zerg build.

In my recent experiences there are a lot of fan boys using his build on ladder at the moment in high Masters. The thing that bothers me though is that everyone seems to be copying a player who in my opinion isn't that talented.

This may seem ironic as my skill level is nowhere near that of any pro player but I label Spanishiwa as nothing more than a build order winner. Sure it was cool that he came up with something new; and I do agree that his build counters a variety of other builds thus enabling zerg's ability to make drones en mass.

The problem with this though is that now, because everyone knows Spanishiwa's play style his default build order win button is nullified. Simply take his recent game vs. Drewbie. Spanishiwa failed to demonstrate any adaptability in his build to counter what Drewbie was doing.

So my plea to the SEA community is to stop using Spanishiwa's build as a staple. Ensure that you work on your game as a whole with different builds.

Otherwise I'm just going to rape you every game gg~

[Benji]

I fail to understand what you mean by a build order winner. Spanishiwa's style is a safe, macro style that forces the game into the midgame. Build order wins usually happen in the first 8 minutes.

[SiF]

Sorry please let me clarify.

What I mean by build order win is that if Spanishiwa secures a large economic lead (as intended with this build) it is very difficult for his opponent to match the sheer size of his army / production.

Additionally it is very difficult for a ground or air army to disrupt the drone production due to the spines and queens.

Therefore I believe the mid game as you put it is rather one sided and a default win. I can see that there are exceptions but I'm only going off my experience so far.

I've found that if you:
1. Try and compete in the macro sense it very difficult due to drone production.
2. Try to disrupt drone production through prodding with your army it is difficult due to spines and queens
3. Try to abuse the zerg's lack of gas you can often gain the advantage early on

[deL]

Benji's right, we should overlook the fact that using Spanishiwa's build is bad practice in order to argue semantics.

[Benji]

Originally Posted by deL

Benji's right, we should overlook the fact that using Spanishiwa's build is bad practice in order to argue semantics.

I've never used it, so i'm not exactly an expert on it, i'm sorry I made a post, but if its such bad practice, why are people mixing it into their play (Idra in NASL, Zenio in NASL and GSL)?

[Monk]

Originally Posted by Benji

I've never used it, so i'm not exactly an expert on it, i'm sorry I made a post, but if its such bad practice, why are people mixing it into their play (Idra in NASL, Zenio in NASL and GSL)?

As far as I know, Zenio has been using the "no gas" build for a long time, even before Spanishiwa came on the scene. I thought I'd throw that in there. I love Spanishiwa, and I constantly watch his stream/replays. So it's no way hate towards him.

But I mix this up in my own way, getting my mass queens and 3 late gases, I've done the no gas build, and it just leaves you in confusion as to what the opponent is doing. Sure 1 ling at his natural/ramp helps.. But you're pretty much in the blind as to what other people have said; You lose an overlord and the build crumbles. It's definitely not everyone's style of play, and if you can play it successfully, then you're obviously GM. It requires so much experience.

[Satu]

Step 1. Claim that Spanishiwa isn't that talented

Step 2. Have ONE example of his build failing

Step 3. Wait for the people en mass to agree with you

Unfrotunately, Spanishiwa IS a talented player, he has to be to be able to make that build, execute it correctly and pull off some of the stuff I've seen him do while streaming.

For example, spine crawlers at the front of his base, four queens and a handful of lings. Then he finds out his opponent proxied a pylon in his main, and was fourgating. No problem! Move two spines up, dont lose anything while he tries to attack your queens and completely demolish the push.

Not to mention he 4-0'd TLO.

I cant see a situation where you can claim successfully that he has no talent, those who beat him either do very strong builds that they've thought of carefully vs him or are simply extremely skilled players.

[SiF]

Originally Posted by Zergtastic

I cant see a situation where you can claim successfully that he has no talent, those who beat him either do very strong builds that they've thought of carefully vs him or are simply extremely skilled players.

Yeah I understand what you're saying and I agree that he is a talented player when you consider the whole spectrum of players. I didn't specify that my opinion is that he is not as talented or well rounded as other PRO players such as idra and oGsTheWind.

Obviously you're a fan boy though so feel free to 1v1 me with his build anytime ;D

[Snx`Azz]

Originally Posted by Zergtastic

Step 1. Claim that Spanishiwa isn't that talented

Step 2. Have ONE example of his build failing

Step 3. Wait for the people en mass to agree with you

Unfrotunately, Spanishiwa IS a talented player, he has to be to be able to make that build, execute it correctly and pull off some of the stuff I've seen him do while streaming.

For example, spine crawlers at the front of his base, four queens and a handful of lings. Then he finds out his opponent proxied a pylon in his main, and was fourgating. No problem! Move two spines up, dont lose anything while he tries to attack your queens and completely demolish the push.

Not to mention he 4-0'd TLO.

I cant see a situation where you can claim successfully that he has no talent, those who beat him either do very strong builds that they've thought of carefully vs him or are simply extremely skilled players.

I can provide u with 2-3 replays of him losing zvp to 4 gate.

but then again ur probably talking zvt.

[Benji]

Isn't zerg aiming for a super large econ and pulling ahead in the midgame what EVERY ZvX strategy is like?

I am curious as to how you gain a BO win vs it, he has options for spines vs Gateway allins, 4 queens + options for spores vs Stargate play, I am curious as to how you hardcounter it.

[SiF]

I don't want to say what my counter is on a public forum however I'd like to show u in a custom tonight - k?

[Benji]

I dont use the build, so no.

If your build only works by suprise, its hardly a solid build counter.

[Satu]

I dont use the spanishiwa build either, only really on special occasions (lol).

Even if I am a fanboy, that does change his recent results in games vs other pros.

His build is pretty well rounded, even if theres a clear counter to his build, he doesn't go for it 100% of the time, so you can be caught off guard very easily if trying to blind counter.

[cruxis]

oGsMC, we all know him; he came out of nowhere and into the spot light with his "innovative" Protoss build.

In my recent experiences there are a lot of fan boys using his build on ladder at the moment in high Masters. The thing that bothers me though is that everyone seems to be copying a player who in my opinion isn't that talented.

This may seem ironic as my skill level is nowhere near that of any pro player but I label oGsMC as nothing more than a build order winner. Sure it was cool that he came up with something new; and I do agree that his build counters a variety of other builds thus enabling Protoss's ability to make sentries en mass.

The problem with this though is that now, because everyone knows oGsMC's play style his default build order win button is nullified. Simply take his recent game vs.(Insert a game where he lost here). oGsMC failed to demonstrate any adaptability in his build to counter what (Player) was doing.

So my plea to the SEA community is to stop using oGsMC build as a staple. Ensure that you work on your game as a whole with different builds.

Otherwise I'm just going to rape you every game gg~

[SiF]

It's not a blind counter - you can scout expo + pool with no gas :P

[SiF]

LOL @ Cruxis ...point taken.

[matthras]

There is one apparent weakness in Spanishiwa's build - the late gas means one going for this build essentially gives up map control in order to secure a strong economy. This essentially means one's opponent can easily double expand since one will be incapable of pressuring throughout the early game.

However, I don't use it myself (getting gas that late makes me really uncomfortable) so I wouldn't know about any 'hard counters'. Regardless, it's a good build to mix into one's repertoire and allows for a bit of tweaking with gas preferences.

[aztecx]

I may still opt for 14p 14g against terran but against Protoss i love using the spanishiwa build. It has also taught me a lot about things such as gas timings and droning whilst staying safe. If you ever watch spanishiwa he's a VERY good player.

EDIT: Trust a protoss player to not understand anything about the game, except that 4gate wins you games.

Quick Comments

Skitz:

[Next_rim]

Originally Posted by aztecx

I am curious as to how you hardcounter it.

Mass queens and spines do not do so well against 2-gate-robo pushes. First attack is 7-min, 2nd wave is 10 min. There are two drawbacks though - it doesn't work on large maps and you have to have perfect positioning and micro.

The good thing is that most of the times protoss gets to destroy queens and spinecrawlers, and denies heavy drone production. Macro-wise, the protoss delays hydra/muta and 3rd base as lot, until protoss is comfortable with income to afford hard zerg army counters like colossi or phoenix. Obviously, zerg has double the hard time if tech is roaches.

Another timing push (for bigger maps) is 3(4)-gate agression with a stargate follow-up. Goal is to kill as many queens as possible, while ignoring spine-crawlers and FF-ing lings away. Then protoss pushes with 2-nd wave with a void ray, safely snipes spinecrawler wall from a distance, and contains the zerg until expansion is secured and saturated. It's stupid for zerg to go roach or muta from here, since protoss already has stargate, and most zerg just go for (delayed!) hydra. Protoss is free to expand and get colossi, therefore.

The flip side is delayed expansion. If you fail with micro, or lose the void ray, it's pretty much game after that, since it is very hard to hold of a counter-attack, or get colossi from one-base to handle approaching hydra ball.

[SiF]

Don't worry Next_Rim no need for a screen shot - I double checked your SC2SEA profile and your bnet I.D to be sure... and you're the only NextRim in the world so don't worry - noone else is smurfing you.

Here you are - just so you can see it while you're at work ...so strange how your work filter allows SC2SEA and not SC2ranks :P