[PiG]

Hi guys,

As anyone who went to NRG knows, I'm a zerg who prefers to whine about map imbalance and spawn distance rather then improve my play!

But honestly, map distance COMPLETELY shifts the way Zerg should be played. The ability to absorb attacks with units popping just in time aswell as creep-spread and hard droning is hugely diminished in close spawn locations. However there is also the increased strength of all-ins that rely on slow roaches or banelings and the ability of those seemingly endless lines of reinforcements to overwhelm your opponent even more suddenly.

Firstly lets assume close positions will be around for a while. Tournaments have taken a while to unanimously remove close spots via custom modifications but all the major tourneys have finally made the move. Blizzard however hasn't made any indication that they are going to remove the close spots so lets learn to deal with it!


What I want to hear from everyone is what do you think when you get close-spots?

Do you just try to play out a normal game vs a terran, (who's walking tanks through the back path on shattered building a PF above your natural)?

Or do you try to end the game early with a powerful and well-timed all-in? Are there certain signs that tip you off into saying for instance: "zomg lol this guys going reactor helions, lets build 10 roaches and win" ??

So what greedy things should zerg never let their opponents get away with in close-spots?

For lazier players, what brainless cheeses can work in almost any situation?

What as a protoss player do you HATE about roaches only having to walk for 10 seconds to reach your base?

What thing are you stupid enough to do as a terran player to ever lose? :P

Let me start off the conversation by saying I like to go 14/14 vs terran, and if i scout a 2rax use 3 drones to stop him bunkering my ramp while i wait for my lings. I then like to get a 21 hatch but always have the option of bane busting and by poking ovies on various sides deciding whether i want to commit to this or not. If they're going banshee's i might even smash down a 3rax walloff if i think its worth the 13 banelings!

Against Toss I like to make use of lots of spines and econ a bit greedily, but whenever I play Nirvana he just sneaks a unit up and warps-in/blinks on the high ground while keeping my ramp FF and I rage and then go and write a thread to try and get options on what I can do to not rage so hard next time.


Note: This Isn't a balance thread. This is simply trying to start a discussion where Zergs can share ideas on how to read the plays differently and be more careful or which all-ins they prefer. Also so players of other races can share their thoughts on how close positions actually can favour certain zerg builds.

Quick Comments

nGenLight:

i hate you

[TAEdgE]

I have very minimal cheeses specifically for close spots. Unlike yourself, i always try to hatch first, because if they don't 11/11rax i can always somehow hold. However i often 14/14 if they early scv scout, or delayed pool/gas if i drone scout it.

Verse Protoss, doing the Losira build with a faster evo and actual droning behind it is great. If they slowly try to expand, they won't have cannons up in time so you can punish him there and contain on 1 base. If he is going DT or Void, the evo can deal with that, and then you can drone up + get an upgrade (unit preference).

Verse Terran, droning to 40 on 2/3 gasses and doing roach/bane seems to be the most optimal. I believe Glade does that, at least some games on close. I'm not too familiar with it.

As for how i personally play. Besides complaining as well, i really love the spine crawler close spots. It's really amazing. What is zergs best defence?

Time
What does a spine crawler do?
It buys time when they kill it.

I had a game on korea where i used 7 spine crawlers, close spots shattered vs a marine tank push to my natural, and was doing huge counter attacks which they could not withstand. Over and over again, i would attack with either a huge army if necessary, or a pesky annoying army. If the annoying army distracted him enough, i could then push my front and kill his push as he is distracted. The spine crawlers make up for the usual defence of time, and on both maps (where you can move around his army decently easily), you can counter attack. They are also very larva efficient, as it's 1 larva a spine crawler, meaning you can drone heavily with the defense and less larva used. I'm not treating you guys stupid when i explain that, just my thought process.

I've been theorying aswell for close spots more too. It's less of a 200/200 protoss deathball army, or a huuuuge upgraded marine tank 3/4 base things for terran. It's those really strong, terrain abusing pushes. How can you abuse terran?

Infestors (+ spines and counters)

If you think about this, from the edge of your crawlers to his ramp, you could probably reach there with 10~ fungals. Fungals can dictate his movement so much, and FORCE him to kill the spines with tanks.

I've been theorying getting mutalisks to kill those tanks, while fungals and ling sacrifices keep marines at bay, but this has not been tested as i prefer not to go through practice games hoping to get close spots. Pretty confidence busting to lose close spots to people you might normally beat.

Anywayyy, versus protoss i thought about terrain to. Forcefields rule. Fungals can't even reach most of the army in such a shit environment where forcefields are number one. How can you bypass forcefields? Well there is drop, but close spots the investment for drop is actually so hurtful, and if he 6 gates you actually just die, spines or not. Early game roach hydra? can work, but if you lose the first engagement (normally before collossi), you lose.

So i've been theorying opening crawlers as usual with heavy droning. I mean alot of crawlers. 6 at least. Going to mutas, using gas only on that and 200 gas on ling speed and ling +1. Early game, if i fear a 6 gate or something, i add more crawlers, make sure the back rocks are TAKEN DOWN, and threaten/execute huge ling attacks while just MASSING spine crawlers.

If he doesn't do a 6 gate, i will go mutas. There are 2 paths he can go through. Mutas can go to both so fast if need be. This is great harassment, and defence. The mobility, although it is not measured in distance, is measured in it's utlity in this instance.

I then figured with the ling +1, then +2, i would go banelings, and dropped banelings. I would be spending minerals on crawlers, drones and lings. I could easily spare 200 for drop now, and banelings too. Especially if he's stalker heavy. No need for more mutas now.

So, muta/ling/baneling (dropped) with all those little tactics, are what i'm planning. The problem also is ofcourse third. It's extremely hard for you to take one safely, and extremely easy for them to punish it.

That's why with the droning and crawlering, i suspected going 2 MACRO HATCHES. That's right. 2. Would be optimal. If you defend ANY of his attacks, you can instantly completley swarm him due to distance and the larva you have. However, if he sits there. you can use that larva for drones, and taking a third and fourth on the other sides of the maps, and you can use static defense from those extra drones from the extra larvae.

It's all theory for me, but i'm sort of getting a good feel for how it goes after minimal practice.

Sorry i do not have many cheeses ;x.

Quick Comments

	nirvAnA:
	TAlkori:	nice :D
	nGenLight:	FML at Zergs with insane knowledge
	Satu:	I finally decided to read through the wall of text. Glad I did.
	TAriiChard:	i learn waaay too much from you
	deL:	FML at Zergs with insane knowledge. I finally decided to read through the wall of text. Glad I did.

[PapaBigBelly]

i think basically, you have to control the map, because if you control the map, the terran or toss is confined into 2 bases only but you can expand at will, however you need more mobile units to defend.

I like very eco baneling bust vs terran on close spawn followed by a third and get infestors asap to delay pushes, plus their drops wont be very effective since you can control the towers plus use overlords to spot the drops. I think its easier to spot drops close spawn.

just basically control the map and flank their attacks, easy to flank in close spawn metal.

However vs toss, is another story. I think close spawn terran is easier to hold off than close spawn toss.

thast why i love MLG MAPS

[crAzerk]

I dislike close spawns for the reasons you've mentioned - and it's just hard to get a 3rd base whereas Protoss/Terran can expand towards you with cannons/ tank-line.

For Zerg to get a 3rd base, you really need to keep them contained to not give them the time to get a probe out and plant some proxy pylon somewhere which can warp in and rape your 3rd later on or small pack marines to clear your 3rd, etc

Thus I usually go for some high pressure strat to try to help me either get this 3rd base up, or if I'm lucky and my opponent is not prepared I'll win the game there.

Vs Terran,

Originally Posted by Edge

Verse Terran, droning to 40 on 2/3 gasses and doing roach/bane seems to be the most optimal. I believe Glade does that, at least some games on close. I'm not too familiar with it.

I do exactly this. Roach/Bane bust works extremely well against any ground defence - marines/hellions/tanks etc. I rarely see mass marauders so I'm not too sure about that.
It should either break their expo and force them to liftoff and turtle back into their main, by which you can drone up and expand to a 3rd, or may win you the game if he doesn't have good tank placements and turtling skills.

If he goes Banshees I'll quickly get 1-2 spores at each base while teching to Mutas (you virtually can't expand if you don't get Mutas vs Banshees) and play it out from there - the roach/bane SHOULD do some damage as well since if he rushes Banshees he won't be able to afford that much ground defence (probably just marines)

Vs Protoss,
I do what Edge said, the Losira build, which if people don't know is the Roach/Ling attack on the Protoss 3 gate expand. I think a common misconception is that it's an all-in attack, when it doesn't have to be!

I use it mainly to force cannons and if possible cancel the Nexus (or kill it if it's up) and just keep the Protoss on the backfoot and not comfortably chronoboosting out probes, while I drone up heavily behind this aggression and take a 3rd if possible. (dependent, may need to get units if he counterpushes) I usually tech to Lair if I see that the push is not going to break him so I'll have hydras out in time for any funny air play.

As Edge points out, an early evo will be really helpful for DTs/Air too so I should be looking to incorporate that into my play

[SLCN.Kez]

vs terran ill usually just play standard if i see him goin marine/tank and hide a third somewhere, and if he tries to deny it ill usually counter push or stop droppin with mutas etc. but if i see him going hellion into banshees ill just baneling bust cauz they never have enough units. against toss i usually ling/roach all-in, but i have a problem if they go 2 gate zealot rush/pressure but i think thats more cauz i never really see it and just am bad dealing with it.

[Next_rim]

As protoss, I scout at 9, and adjust my FFE order. If close spawn, forge->cannon->gate->nexus, if long, nexus-forge-gateway-cannon. Unless it's shattered, and I get blind 6-pooled.

[EveMassacrisM]

I bane bust almost every ZvT close position. However there's this funky quick bane drop build that I've been practicing. It's basically droning to 40 while getting Lair to get drops asap. Could hurt the Roach/bane army a bit but Zerg can approach the Marine/Tank much more efficiently.

[PiG]

"I have very minimal cheeses specifically for close spots. Unlike yourself, i always try to hatch first, because if they don't 11/11rax i can always somehow hold. However i often 14/14 if they early scv scout, or delayed pool/gas if i drone scout it."

Great point Edge. I used to always hatch first, but after a few games with YoonYJ doing 11/11 or 11/12 rax and bringing 7 scvs I realised I could barely hold by microing perfectly, and even then would lose so many drones that Yoon had a solid lead. I asked Yoon how to stop that rush with hatch first in close spots and he said it couldn't be done, or atleast he'd never been stopped doing that rush. So i realised, what I can do then is when scouting, avoid his workers sight and just look for a glimpse of the CC in close spots. This way he can't see from my drone timing that I'm close spots and can't throw his rax down on 11/11 unless he scouts early, which few terran players do. This small variation should make my hatch first on close spots much more viable! And from here going into the roach bane 40 drones style is something I love to do.

Unfortunately if you ever play Iaguz in close spots you know how much of an ass he can be with barracks walls and MANY MANY seige tanks which he never overextends. I believe burrowed infestors using infested bombs + roach bane composition is still probably the best option here as even the slighteset opening or overextension and you can crush face.

2-3 spine crawlers really does buy you alot of time against those super fast tank pushes which can punish you for rushing bane and roach speed upgrades.

ZvP yeah roach-ling pressure/all-in is definitely a great move. You have to control your roaches well targetting buildings to bait ff without getting many/any trapped against the wall.

Alternatively, spines + mutas is perfect edge. I've seen some other top zergs doing it and am looking forward to trying a style that i almost never use once again!


Random cheese that worked by luck: 1 game I tried to roach ling all-in Light but was failing hard off a pretty big economy aswell as 2 gases and his ff kept trapping my roaches and blasting em down. I swapped to banelings just for lulz and made a big clump. However before they morphed he actually came out from his wall-in, trapped a few more roaches with his last few FF (by this time my roach count was around 3? :s). Of course with only 1 FF left, and a tiny crack to squeeze back through to safety, my swarm of lings and ~12 banelings annihilated his force and my reinforcements charged through ftw.

Generally though I think banelings suck vs toss without Ultra/drops.

[Azure]

Close spots as zerg is really annoying.
I generally try and play a normal game but 9/10 games the opponent is doing some kind of one base all in strat.

Most protoss and terran's I speak to also hate close spawns as well as the games are not really interesting and are generally one sided.

I think Jinro said himself in an interview that he hates the map metal just because of the chance for close spots as its boring as hell.

[Jules_]

I bm, then resign.

[AlphaWhale]

I play like a spastic. Close spots meta just makes me think my opponent is going all-in or midgame all-in.

I deny their natural as much as possible. That's generally my main thought process. Unless I'm in a really commanding lead with map control aswell the idea of a third is unknown to me. My main goal is to defend whatever one or two base all in they've cooked up because that's generally how everybody on the ladder likes to play it.

Stalker(with or without blink) and immortals. Siege tank marine. Banshee marine. Thor rush. I am a firm believer that close spots metalopolis brings out the worst in people so I try to respond to that by outbadding them.

I secure my natural and then do something they might not be prepared for. It's a cheese match.

edit: I used to baneling bust in this situation but everybody LOOOOOVES hellions.

[ToRDeathsFang]

OMG you Zerg noobs stop complaining and go back to how it was 2 months ago, Protoss deathballs destroying you no matter what, those were the days. Stop making it hard for us -reminisce-

Quick Comments

PiG:

lol! Sorry but the time has past :P

[TheTinyOne]

Hi all,

I'm GM and wanna share a few of my experience maybe it will help.

My standard opening is always 15hatch then 14pool whether it's a small or a big map.

Vs protoss.
-at 10 drone and building an overlord, i would do an extrater trick and bring my food to 11/10. The drone that did the extrator trick will then go to scout. Usually on a big map if i am unlucky it will be quite late to scout the base but will still be able to enter the base to have a general idea of the enemy's build (except for terran).

So, once the drone reach the enemy base, check on the gateway hp, if the gateway hp is somewhat low, that means the protoss is doing a 13 or 14 gateway. Then I will definately proxy hatch him. Whether he notices the proxy hatch or not, it doesnt matter. Then wait 200 to get a spawning pool and drone to 17. When spawning pool at half hp, build an extra and mine it when it is up. Then once spawning pool is done, ill get a roach warren, usually about 17-18 drone mining minerals and 3 for gas. This build order is specifically to counter protoss that do a late gateway or a terran that go only 1 barracks.

Vs terran.
-Nowadays terran prefer to go 2 rax to keep an early pressure on the zerg. Ofc if we follow spanishiwa build style, there will be spines and queens that void early attacks. I strongly suggest this build order but doing this require very good micro - a simple mistake would cause the game.
-Versus-ing terran is pretty straight forward, overlord placement to check for drops, zergling baneling to stop marine tanks and mutalisk is also a must to kill the medivacs and make terran commit turret. The issue that I am facing right now is, because terran is so strong as a ball, usually zerg would require more "money" to counter that army. In addition, to that, we need to know timing push which can be very random at times.

Anyways here are my taughts:
1) I feel roach is so weak. They are slow even with speed upgrade, slow attack speed and short range. They cause alot more than marines but they just got overrun by marines. Sad and illogical.
2) At least know a few pieces of information before you drone up.
3) Overlord is important for scout and creep spreading for hydras
4) I never used baneling againts protoss. Too uneconomical.
5) I'm afraid of the protoss composition of stalker + immortal than stalker +colo. Tho, stalker+void+colo is pretty hard to counter.
6) I usually proxy hatch 20% of the time vs protoss.

[iM SundeR]

A little cheesy, but I've found that drone drilling two drones through their zealot and using them to surround with 6 lings after 14/14 works most of the time. It can be held by pure chrono on a sentry but if they don't react properly it works. I have about an 80% success rate with it, which is higher than trying to play a 2basev2base game with T or P.

[PsYkO]

No offense but your proxy hatch against me as terran was pretty funny