Loads of drama/disagreements aside, this is shaping up to be the biggest community-based league in SEA SC2 history. Hence why I am so keen to be apart of it, tingling inside waiting for it!
Also note to clans: Let your manager/spokesperson do the managing/public speaking to avoid above disaster.
Last edited by nGenLight; Thu, 5th-Jan-2012 at 3:22 AM.
Really want to put my 2c in, but scared it will create a shit storm so here we go. Please remember that I'm only representing MY opinion not SPRs, and looking for a rational discussion surrounding the issue. I also have no influence over who SPR decides to field, that's up to the managers. Now hopefully the shitstorm disclaimers are out of the way....
Why is it we have no standardized rule for who is eligible and who is not? What is considered 'active' on the server? Keep in mind a few things though...
Many of the SPR members (i.e. ych, tiger) were in SPR long before any mention of seacl2 was made, meaning they have a history with the clan and it's not just someone post league announcement joining quickly merc style and playing a heap of matches to get eligible. Hell even look in the masters cup rule thread and you'll specifically see them mentioned as active sea players. My point I suppose is that active players will be considered subjective, having a clear rule (I.e. xyz amount of games in preceding season before announcement) could solve some of these issues, and set a clear precedent going forward. Don't forget this tournament looks great, but it's also about setting up the future of seacl, so if we don't lay down clear and objective rules this shitfight may happen every season (not just with SPR).
Unclear rules I think are what's causing the most issues.
Originally i beleive reasons given for their exclusion is they were on teams, and therefore ineligable. No worries, but other players are playing for clans who are on teams also.
They don't play on SEA enough people say. Ok, but many people master mentioned have played 100's of games on the SEA server. If you're going to use games on SEA as a benchmark why is tgun playing? Yes shitstorm inc from that statement, but I believe his account has only played ~10 or so games in the last two seasons on SEA. Before people go batshit crazy I'm NOT suggesting tgun should be ineligable, I'm mearly pointing out that its strange some people can play more on SEA yet not be considered part of the community simply because their english isn't the best and not conducive to posting on sc2sea.
Finally what about tournaments you say? Clearly tgun etc commonly plays in more sc2sea tournaments showing they are a part of the sc2sea community? Yes, youre right clearly they aren't actively joining in the community there,, but that's only because they were banned from most of them. It's a pretty silly chicken and egg scenario when you use the fact that they aren't allowed to be part of the sc2sea community as further justification for ... well ... not allowing them to be part of the sc2sea community.
Having stirred the pot I'll leave it there. Please remember these are MY views, not SPRs in any way and they never knew I was posting this. Admins you're doing a GREAT job
with the tourney so far, but please consider having objective rules in place so in the future if any clan includes people in their roster that anyone takes issue with we have a clear avenue of redress so everyone is relatively happy.
P.s. posted on iPhone, sorry for any grammar / spelling issues.
sry I feel like our team ToT is a little bit isolated from the whole SEA community, even I (as a manager of SEA team)began to come sc2sea after seacl posted.there are some reasons of these: our English may not that good to integrate this community, we dont use msn&skype,and dont even have a sc2 channel like 'team spr'. these makes us so isolation TT. Look our rosters, most of our players(even gm) u may be not familiar with, cos we are in a small circles,which i think its really terrible.
But this will be ending soon! I usually hang in team EVE and team spr channel these days,and open sc2sea see what interest happen everyday. i find u guys are so cute,the admins of this forum and many tournaments(like nirvana,Frogmite,nemo,cute sry i cant list all of u)are really honorable.but i have to say when i first come here and ask why we dont have a clan league,some guys seems not very friendly,see my -3points T.T,what scared me a lot, but it was probably my english havent explained things very clearly and properly,hope i do better in this post^^.
I will open a ToT channel on the server like team SPR,and try our best to integrate SEA community, spr is our good example as a foreigner team,they did way better than us. I hope ToT will be a important component of sea,cos we are really a huge clan,even bigger than TA i think, we have about 20+gms,at least 50masters, 260members in total,of course the top players of TA are way better than us^^.
I know team ToT is known as a cheese team in sea, yea,haha, its funny,even all of us will definitely agree with this, we even name 5 players "5 SEA Shameless cheesers".
All of u may think we are underdogs of tier 1,yes,we are not the best and most of my players are in china in order to celebrating chinese new year with their families. so there would be some lag problems.
but i have full confidence that we will surprise all u guys, we will show our RTS talent is as good as koreans like what we have shown in wc3,some of ToTers practice in kr server these months(cos in china),and some of them are top master now. Two months ago,when ToT begined, jerry was the no.1 of ToT,no question about that,but now, i have some other ace choices.
i wil create a ToT official forum in sc2sea ASAP, for some of u may wanna contact to us and have a friendly cw.
sry again for everyone may read it hard cos my weak English.i hope i say clearly~but it took me 3 hours to write.
WE may not the best team, but we are definitely not weak team, what u can sure is, ToT is always friendly(may always cheesing) clan!!
They don't play on SEA enough people say. Ok, but many people master mentioned have played 100's of games on the SEA server. If you're going to use games on SEA as a benchmark why is tgun playing? Yes shitstorm inc from that statement, but I believe his account has only played ~10 or so games in the last two seasons on SEA. Before people go batshit crazy I'm NOT suggesting tgun should be ineligable, I'm mearly pointing out that its strange some people can play more on SEA yet not be considered part of the community simply because their english isn't the best and not conducive to posting on sc2sea.
Tgun counts because he is a citizen of SEA (Australia to be precise).
There's also the consideration that some Australians have difficulty playing on SEA or choose not to (Shuffle for example) that would also be allowed to play without a second's thought, for the reasons mentioned.
@dippa and timber.
If citizenship is going to be used as the benchmark as to who is eligible, that's fine and I accept that. If its only avaliable to SEA born players say that. If its only avaliable to players living in a SEA country, that's fine, say that. My point is that there needs to be a clear, open and consistent approach and ruleset for eligibility.
To show that I'm not just trying to be a dick about it, here is an example of a ruleset I think would be fair for eligibility....
- Must be currently residing in a SEA country
OR
- Must have a minimum or 25 ladder games each season on the SEA server under their unique SEA account over the last two seasons.
- Must have been a member of the clan for at least three months before the announcement of SEACL#2, or for all future SEACL's been a member before the commencement of the previous season I.e to be eligible for SEACL 3 you must have joined your clan before SEACL 2 started.
I think these requirements are more than fair, but I'd be interested in the community opinion. I also think they would be effective enough at preventing 'ring ins' specifically bought in for only one tournament.
@dippa and timber.
If citizenship is going to be used as the benchmark as to who is eligible, that's fine and I accept that. If its only avaliable to SEA born players say that. If its only avaliable to players living in a SEA country, that's fine, say that. My point is that there needs to be a clear, open and consistent approach and ruleset for eligibility.
To show that I'm not just trying to be a dick about it, here is an example of a ruleset I think would be fair for eligibility....
- Must be currently residing in a SEA country
OR
- Must have a minimum or 25 ladder games each season on the SEA server under their unique SEA account over the last two seasons.
- Must have been a member of the clan for at least three months before the announcement of SEACL#2, or for all future SEACL's been a member before the commencement of the previous season I.e to be eligible for SEACL 3 you must have joined your clan before SEACL 2 started.
I think these requirements are more than fair, but I'd be interested in the community opinion. I also think they would be effective enough at preventing 'ring ins' specifically bought in for only one tournament.
You're going down the right path. This is the same problem that cropped up with the FadeEvetS hacking situation in that there isn't a clear policy as to what constitutes eligibility.
I don't think setting an amount of "games" could work; anything under 100-150 is really quite easy to hit for mercenaries. But like I said, this is a good starting point.
Really want to put my 2c in, but scared it will create a shit storm so here we go. Please remember that I'm only representing MY opinion not SPRs, and looking for a rational discussion surrounding the issue. I also have no influence over who SPR decides to field, that's up to the managers. Now hopefully the shitstorm disclaimers are out of the way....
Never,ever, ever, have fear to express your genuine opinion as long as you stay calm and respectful of others. Administration team will warranty that it will be respected.
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Why is it we have no standardized rule for who is eligible and who is not? What is considered 'active' on the server? Keep in mind a few things though...
(...)
so if we don't lay down clear and objective rules this shitfight may happen every season (not just with SPR).
Unclear rules I think are what's causing the most issues.
In fact not. Rules are made so people can conform to what the community want. They are the expression of the group will. If someone do something the community don't accept but is not forbid by the rules, the rules will be changed to limit that unwanted behavior.
In fact in this situation, the rules have been well written and it's unnecessary to change them : "It's no unless the Admins say yes". And the Admins won't says yes if the community is unanimous to forbid them from participating.
They might, if they think it's wise, extend the "right to be automatically elligible" to guys that have been very active on the SEA ladder since 6 month, have participated enough in the forum, have streamed enough for SEA etc.
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Originally i beleive reasons given for their exclusion is they were on teams, and therefore ineligable. No worries, but other players are playing for clans who are on teams also.
They don't play on SEA enough people say. Ok, but many people master mentioned have played 100's of games on the SEA server. If you're going to use games on SEA as a benchmark why is tgun playing?
He's n nationality + belongs to SEA => tgun automatically has the right to participate. 100% in the rule.
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I'm mearly pointing out that its strange some people can play more on SEA yet not be considered part of the community simply because their english isn't the best and not conducive to posting on sc2sea.
That's where you are absolutely wrong Peleus.
Soulmann is really weak in english, but that never stopped him from wanting to participate in this community. He streamed for people from here, putting his stream link on the chat each time he does and making the effort to answer EACH question in English using Google translate, even in game ! I was so impressed and moved when I saw that, that I even took a screenshot of it. I don't find where I have put it. :-/
He participates, whatever his level in English. That's why he has 92 rep points in 30 posts and why people love him. And that's why you won't see anyone questioning his participation.
If the others want to be part of the community, they can.
But it rises the question I asked and you didn't answer : Why do they want to be part of us ? Soulman never explained why he was here but he seems to enjoy the community. What for them ? That's the most important question and you guys keep avoiding answering. Why ?
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Finally what about tournaments you say? Clearly tgun etc commonly plays in more sc2sea tournaments showing they are a part of the sc2sea community? Yes, youre right clearly they aren't actively joining in the community there,, but that's only because they were banned from most of them. It's a pretty silly chicken and egg scenario when you use the fact that they aren't allowed to be part of the sc2sea community as further justification for ... well ... not allowing them to be part of the sc2sea community.
That's not participating in tournament that makes you part of the community. Look at me.
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Having stirred the pot I'll leave it there. Please remember these are MY views, not SPRs in any way and they never knew I was posting this.
You're going down the right path. This is the same problem that cropped up with the FadeEvetS hacking situation in that there isn't a clear policy as to what constitutes eligibility.
I don't think setting an amount of "games" could work; anything under 100-150 is really quite easy to hit for mercenaries. But like I said, this is a good starting point.
Acknowledging your post, however I'll address it in some of the 'what is part of the community' themed response below.
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Originally Posted by Nemo
Never,ever, ever, have fear to express your genuine opinion as long as you stay calm and respectful of others. Administration team will warranty that it will be respected.
In fact not. Rules are made so people can conform to what the community want. They are the expression of the group will. If someone do something the community don't accept but is not forbid by the rules, the rules will be changed to limit that unwanted behavior.
I agree that rules are the representation of a communities desire / accepted behaviour. I also accept that if someone does something that is currently not covered, the rules will be changed to reflect that what occurred isn't acceptable, etc.
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In fact in this situation, the rules have been well written and it's unnecessary to change them : "It's no unless the Admins say yes". And the Admins won't says yes if the community is unanimous to forbid them from participating.
They might, if they think it's wise, extend the "right to be automatically elligible" to guys that have been very active on the SEA ladder since 6 month, have participated enough in the forum, have streamed enough for SEA etc.
This is where I think we disagree, and I'll outline why.
Firstly, well written rules don't leave much room for ambiguity, but that's exactly what 'leave it to the admins to decide' does. 'No unless the admins decide' is in every scenario a case by case decision and the definition of ambiguous. Since we talk about rules being a representation of a communities will, I'd draw a parallel to laws in our society. Imagine the outcry if instead of written laws we simply had a situation where "A judge will decide if what you did was appropriate". Clearly this would never work, with disagreements happening left right and centre.
Having set eligibility criteria allows an independent yes or no to be given without opinion or ambiguity. If someone however finds a way to abuse the spirit of the rules, the admins can still come in and change them, just like laws in our society need to be changed from time to time.
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He's n nationality + belongs to SEA => tgun automatically has the right to participate. 100% in the rule.
No problem, I was more just trying to point out that even people considered part of the community don't necessarily play 100's of games on SEA ladder.
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That's where you are absolutely wrong Peleus.
Soulmann is really weak in english, but that never stopped him from wanting to participate in this community. He streamed for people from here, putting his stream link on the chat each time he does and making the effort to answer EACH question in English using Google translate, even in game ! I was so impressed and moved when I saw that, that I even took a screenshot of it. I don't find where I have put it. :-/
He participates, whatever his level in English. That's why he has 92 rep points in 30 posts and why people love him. And that's why you won't see anyone questioning his participation.
If the others want to be part of the community, they can.
This is where I feel it's a little dangerous with the ground we're treading on, and where I will address dippa's post also. As many people have rightly pointed out, this is the 'SEA'CL. You have to equally acknowledge though that this is NOT the 'sc2sea.com'CL. I'd say the vast majority of players in the lower tier teams have never posted on sc2sea.com, and I don't think that your standing on this website should be the deciding factor in whether you are part of 'SEA' or not. There may be plenty of reasons why someone doesn't post here, be it english (as you pointed out some people like soulman go above and beyond, but that doesn't stop it being a barrier for many), lack of interest, nothing to say but perhaps lurk, etc.
Addressing dippa's point - yes you're right that for mercs perhaps even 100 games isn't a high 'barrier'. But at what game count do they stop being a merc playing to get games up for eligibility and simply become a SEA ladder player playing? Having a reasonable number of games (25 imo but I'm open to discussion on exact numbers) highlights a few things.
1) They have a history of playing on SEA, as shown even a high number of games may not be a barrier to pro players trying to do it solely to gain eligibility, so why have it high for the following downsides.
2) Eligibility should apply to ALL players. Its easy to say that the highest tier players may find 100 games easy, but what about the BSG player who enjoys playing on SEA because it's less competition than say the KR ladder? What if they have friends playing on the SEA ladder? Once more the highest tiered player get the most focus and scrutiny, however it must be fair to all. This is also why I'm not keen on 'sc2sea.com' contribution requirements such as streaming etc. No one expects this of those in the lower leagues, why is it different barriers for the better players? Rules should be consistent and fair to all.
3) Pro players sometimes do not play a heap of ladder games. Let's face it often they are practising in customs, amongst friends, etc. I think it's unreasonable to make them play hundreds of games when many top tier players in the SEA community may not do that naturally anyway.
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But it rises the question I asked and you didn't answer : Why do they want to be part of us ? Soulman never explained why he was here but he seems to enjoy the community. What for them ? That's the most important question and you guys keep avoiding answering. Why ?
I believe motivation for playing should be different from the rules defining if you should be allowed too. Perhaps they like smashing everyone and taking home the money? Perhaps they enjoy representing their clan? Perhaps they enjoy playing with their friends? I don't see how it actually impacts on the decision as to whether or not they are eligible.
Edit: If, for arguments sake, someone has played 50 games each season for the last two seasons, and is a member of a SEA clan for years, yet does not post of sc2sea.com, can you really say they are not a member of the SEA community?
Last edited by Peleus; Thu, 5th-Jan-2012 at 6:27 AM.
I agree that rules are the representation of a communities desire / accepted behaviour. I also accept that if someone does something that is currently not covered, the rules will be changed to reflect that what occurred isn't acceptable, etc.
OK.
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Originally Posted by PeleusSPR
This is where I think we disagree, and I'll outline why.
Firstly, well written rules don't leave much room for ambiguity,
Indeed we disagree on that point. It's driving us too far away of the main subject to discuss it here. If it's really neede for the discussion we will open another thread for that but I don't think it's necessary.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeleusSPR
This is where I feel it's a little dangerous with the ground we're treading on, and where I will address dippa's post also. As many people have rightly pointed out, this is the 'SEA'CL. You have to equally acknowledge though that this is NOT the 'sc2sea.com'CL. I'd say the vast majority of players in the lower tier teams have never posted on sc2sea.com, and I don't think that your standing on this website should be the deciding factor in whether you are part of 'SEA' or not. There may be plenty of reasons why someone doesn't post here, be it english (as you pointed out some people like soulman go above and beyond, but that doesn't stop it being a barrier for many), lack of interest, nothing to say but perhaps lurk, etc.
I agree. But it's covered by the rules. You can participate if:
Actual rule : You're from SEA (nationality, you live there, you're laddering much and since a long time here) : No need to have any link to sc2sea.com
Additional proposition : You're active member of the community via sc2sea : You're also accepted.
No compulsory link between the tournament and the site even if the proposition is put in place.
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I believe motivation for playing should be different from the rules defining if you should be allowed too.
You have strict rules that allow people no matter what are their motivation to play. Non-residents and "strangers" of SEA countries don't enter in that category (like Korean players playing in Korea and me for example).
For other to be allowed, we should know why it would be good for SEA community. And motivation is then the N°1 argument in my opinion.
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Perhaps they like smashing everyone and taking home the money? Perhaps they enjoy representing their clan? Perhaps they enjoy playing with their friends? I don't see how it actually impacts on the decision as to whether or not they are eligible.
Means you have absolutely no clue about their motivations. So you're in their clan, you speak natively their tong, I guess, and you don't know why they want to play here ? For me there is no better argument to say "No" to their participation. Really.
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Edit: If, for arguments sake, someone has played 50 games each season for the last two seasons, and is a member of a SEA clan for years, yet does not post of sc2sea.com, can you really say they are not a member of the SEA community?
Personally ? Yes, they would not. The rules wanted by the community could differ, but that's my opinion.
Edit : Sorry, I won't be able to do you're replay analysis tonight, it's already 11 O'Clock and I had too many things to do including this discussion. Really sorry, I promised and failed. Will try to do it tomorow.
I agree. But it's covered by the rules. You can participate if:
Actual rule : You're from SEA (nationality, you live there, you're laddering much and since a long time here) : No need to have any link to sc2sea.com
Additional proposition : You're active member of the community via sc2sea : You're also accepted.
No compulsory link between the tournament and the site even if the proposition is put in place.
The actual rule as I understand it is "8. You may not include players based outside of Southeast Asia or Oceania in your team unless an admin grants special consideration."
Now with no disrespect intended, your additional 'proposition' is exactly the sc2sea.com link that I'm referring to. There is a compulsory link with the website if you 'fail' the first criteria. If you have that additional proposition in there the rules become "Anyone from SEA automatically qualifies and you can also play if you're well liked on sc2sea.com". Now, the danger of challenging rules such as this is that it can imply that admin's can't make qualified or fair decisions. That is not my intent. I simply wish to point out that it creates ambiguity, and having objective rather than subjective rules with regards to eligibility removes these issues and sets a clear precedent for the future running of long multi season successful clan league.
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You have strict rules that allow people no matter what are their motivation to play. Non-residents and "strangers" of SEA countries don't enter in that category (like Korean players playing in Korea and me for example).
For other to be allowed, we should know why it would be good for SEA community. And motivation is then the N°1 argument in my opinion.
As you can probably tell I'm all for objective rather than subjective rules, which is why I believe motivation shouldn't be considered in eligibility. There could be a player I think is a total d@#, but I acknowledge that they have the right to play in something. I'd also like to point out that anyone with a chance of winning automatically has a 'they are doing it for the money' motivation assigned to their actions, while anyone who isn't very strong has a 'they are doing it for the fun' motivation assigned to their actions. It pretty clearly shows that we don't know, and no one will ever know what is truly going through the mind of any player who signs up for a SEACL, so I don't think it's fair to judge their eligibility based on it.
Edit #2 (#1 was grammer): I realise I perhaps didn't answer your question fully. I'd also point out I can't accept that you are defined as part of a community, or not part of a community, purely because of your nationality of current residence. I think actions speak louder than words, which is why I think involvement in SEA (not sc2sea.com), laddering, being part of clans etc is a more telling tale of eligibility.
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Means you have absolutely no clue about their motivations. So you're in their clan, you speak natively their tong, I guess, and you don't know why they want to play here ? For me there is no better argument to say "No" to their participation. Really.
Firstly, I don't actually speak Korean, I've never had conversations with Tiger, yCh etc, and no, I don't know their motivation for playing. I've never had anyone ask my motivation for playing SC2 either, so I don't see why anyone should have to justify it to anyone else. I'd also like to point out that although this conversation has definitely kicked off on a SPR related situation, I'm trying to establish and contribute rules for all players / clans in this SEACL and all future ones. What's going to happen if a KR pro joins TA and ladders for a month on SEA before the announcement of SEACL#3? What if they ladder for a month AND post on sc2sea.com? What if they ladder for a week but become well liked here? What if they ladder for 6 months but don't post on sc2sea.com? What if pro's are allowed in the future, but at other times they have been disallowed? It's a recipe for a massive shitfight and disaster in future events when quite frankly it can be sorted now with next to no issues.
What is the down side of having objective rules stated clearly now? I truly don't see the problem with the rule change I suggested above, but would love some feedback on that specifically. I genuinely don't know if I'm actually arguing for all the SPR 'pro's' to be excluded or not, I haven't looked up their ladder history, I'm just trying to find where abouts a fair line in the sand can be drawn for the benefit of the community.
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Personally ? Yes, they would not. The rules wanted by the community could differ, but that's my opinion.
Firstly, it's your opinion, and opinions are never 'wrong', simply disagreed with. What about if they've played 200 games over 3 months? 500 over 6 months? Once more I think there is a lot stronger link to the rules simply being more weighted towards 'liked on sc2sea.com' rather than an objective 'they play this much on SEA ladder'. It highlights the exact ambiguity that's created by not having a definition in place.
Last edited by Peleus; Thu, 5th-Jan-2012 at 8:20 AM.
I don't think games played on ladder should amount to anything when determining how much of a part of the community they are. With how easy it is to switch servers and additionally how quickly someone who is basically playing the game professionally to accrue that many games without engaging with the community in any way it is meaningless. There is no correlation between ladder games and community involvement and it can be fabricated if that is the required point of entry by simply massing games without the need to talk to opponents or contribute.
That's where sc2sea comes in - how can you be serious about contributing and being involved in the SEA scene when you don't take the effort to sign up on the main website, or even teamliquid where a lot of SEA natives are. Sure it shouldn't be compulsory to write X blogs here or whatever but it can't hurt when proving you're committed to the server and not just here to grind your way to the top of the ladder and hang out with people who speak your language.
I guess some parallels can be drawn with nirvAnA's blog description of "fobs" here. It's not exactly like that but I think the same objections people have about the latter might apply to the former - simply physically being here doesn't mean anything if you never interact or engage with the local customs or communities.
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Brendan "TAdeL" Ferguson Clan TA | Twitter | YouTube
My 2c, from someone who I guess is on the outside looking in
I support the idea of having a history of being a member of SEA-based clans. As far as wording of the rules, I'd suggest something along the lines of "Member of the clan for minimum 2-3[?] months, or previous history with an SEA clan for 2-3 months". There can be a basic level of responsibility left to the respective clans to ensure they are building a team (long term) rather than hiring tournament winners (short term).
So if someone were to come and join Clan X, and was on their roster for 2-3 months but couldn't manage to get a spot in their lineup, they could switch teams to clan Y for more playing time, and not be penalised for it by having to sit out a season while they accrue time with their current clan.
To combat the concern of mercs, include something like "any player who does not remain on a team for a full 2-3 month term may be subject to inquiry by tournament admins, and any players/teams creating a mercenary situation will be penalised" - penalties could be things like a player being ineligible to participate in the next league (i.e. having their "history" with clans reset and needing to sit tight for 2-3 months until they are eligible), teams being demoted to a lower league for the next season, etc. There are plenty of ways you can incentivise teams to run a tight ship.
By doing this, you open the doors to people in other countries to come to SEA and join the SEA community - by making it easier for them to do so. There is no such incentive when open to citizens and residents only.
What about the guy in the US who works night shifts, and wants to participate in clan tournaments?
I guess it depends on what the goal of the tournament actually is. If the goal is just to improve sc2sea.com then sure, we should enforce them to be active on the site, and if you aren't someone who likes participating on forums, bad luck - play somewhere else. But if it's to further the quality of play across SEA, and to build a tournament that is worth talking about to people beyond the participants, I think participating in a clan is enough. And to be honest, I think the benefit to the SEA community in the long run is to take the latter approach anyway.
i see grey area in rules (in any context) as a bad thing. saying "it's up to the admins on a case by case basis" is especially bad when most/all admin's are playing for and/or managing teams in this league
if the rule is something like "non SEA residents/citizens require 100 wins on ladder in 2 consecutive ladder seasons prior to start of league" then worst case scenario is we have some extra (probably high level) active players on the ladder (which counters the biggest complaint about the server)
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i guess i need to learn how to play now...
i see grey area in rules (in any context) as a bad thing. saying "it's up to the admins on a case by case basis" is especially bad when most/all admin's are playing for and/or managing teams in this league
Admins are organizing the clan league for the community not to see their clan sake. Not a single admin will take a biased decision in a clan league. Before taking any decision we discuss with all the other admins, it takes us time and dedication so i don't really like to hear these kind of comments.
We are currently working on clarifying a bit the entry rule.
lol, i go on vacation for 2 weeks and my team gets into a shitstorm Don't worry guys, a line up similar to my initial submission will be presented very soon, with a second team also being used. Sorry for all the trouble.
Regards,
Xeno - Manager of SPR
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That guy who always has a base trade with Yang....BASE TRAAADEEEE
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