This thread gives the players and managers of SEA League 1 (Tier 4) a place to voice their opinions on current topics, make suggestions for new topics of discussion, leave feedback or just let us know what you like/dislike about the league in general. Feel free to post here regarding any of the hot topics below, or suggest something else that you would like to see changed. We may be analysing the league at the midway point which leaves an opening to bring in new rules or change those that are unclear or not useful.
Remember, simple YES or NO answers will NOT be considered - you must justify any point you make!
Topics
Subs *Subs are the number of additional team members that can be added to the roster, up to 4 maybe used.
Are 4 subs enough/too much for the season?
Should Masters players cost 2 sub points?
Should subs be allowed? Should they be infinite?
Should subs have a time limit (no less than 24hrs before match)
Should subs have a 'quarantine' period where they can only be used the week after they are added to the roster?
Wildcards *Wildcards (WCs) are the number of replacements for no-shows allowed from the roster, up to 8 may be used.
Are 8 subs enough/too much for the season?
Should Masters players cost 2 wildcards to add/replace?
Should walkover time refresh to a wildcard, or still apply?
Penalties *Penalties are accrued for late submission of results or lineups, and will carry various penalties yet to be decided.A simple late submission is worth 1 penalty point. Failing to submit a lineup entirely is worth 2 penalty points. Other infractions include abuse of a player or admin, cheating of any kind, unfounded accusations of cheating, etc.
What punishments should apply to teams with too many penalties?
Currently the rule of thumb is 3 penalty points = 2 wildcards removed or 1 sub removed, 4 penalty points = 1 ladder point removed, 5+ penalty points = revise position in league and recommend change of captain.
Misc Rules
Double rounds (2 matches per week from Round 4 on to finish league in time)
How to prevent cheating (admin in every game, must submit reps, no stream...)
Observers (allowed only if captains agree)
Handling ties in the league ladder (use for/against, penalties, etc.)
Rosters
The main points of discussion here include:
Masters players being allowed when some teams have Platinum players
Currently this is being assessed, especially the use of subs to gain Masters rank players. The problem is that not all teams have tier 2/3 representation, and that some teams can field almost entirely Masters players. Solutions include limiting the number of masters used each week, making masters count as 2 wildcards/subs when added to a lineup or roster, or not allowing masters to play in the Ace match.
Lower league players like platinums will not be used
Related to having masters players in the rosters, it means Plat players don't get as much of a run and may go unused almost all season. Currently this is not seen as a problem in need of revising yet as teams can take the league as casually or competitively as they like but possible solutions include enforcing at least 1 platinum player per lineup.
Player cap of 15 per team
This was decided as a constant across all teams by head admins, and not discussed by individual league admins for each tier. The main reasons to include this restriction are to even the playing field for teams without huge depth, make tactical lineup choice more effective, limiting the use of subs, etc.
Lineup submission and wildcard/sub use
Currently lineups are submitted confidentially directly to myself or Lemminks by the team captains. Lineups are then published when both teams submit the lineup at least 48 hours in advance. Wildcards and subs can be used at any time, even before a match and don't require a formal post, just notify an admin. This is because wildcards usually imply a need for haste so having to wait for an admin to read the thread may slow things down.
Feedback
There is particular interest in feedback on the following topics:
I'd like to address the point "Masters players being allowed when some teams have Platinum players"
At the moment, almost every team has at least 1 masters player. Some teams have two, or three or even four (like us) and judging by the subs being used, it seems like masters players are mainly the ones being added. While this is not a really competitive league, we all want to win right? I personally think this results in team managers (like moi) wanting to field our better players every week, giving our (active) BSGP players no chance to play, defeating the point of having P/D leagues in the first place!
When KFC played against ToT, we decided mutually to both field a BSG player. Even though our silver player didn't want to play, we pitted a platinum player against ToT's gold and from what I heard, it was a good match.
In my humble opinion, I think having the format "Max 2 masters player+platinum player" a week may work. If a team doesn't have a platinum player for example, then the next lowest possible league should play? And the position of this should be set to say, Game 1. (We don't want masters to match against gold now do we?! =D)
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Clan Leader of
Protoss
: ericma1123
I agree that we need to have a cap on the number of Masters players that can be used. 2 is slightly reasonable, 1 would be the best. This makes competition fairer. Reinforcing at least one platinum player is a good idea, so that players of different skill level get to play.
Personally opposed to any kind of league restrictions. They defeat the whole point of having a promotion/relegation system imo. Any kind of league restrictions introduces problems with people not being ranked at their skill level.
If you want your lower level players to get a game, hopefully you have enough players that you can submit another team next season.
Maybe there needs to be a sixth tier? That would get rid of the need for double weeks. If there aren't quite enough to have 10 teams/tier you can always have byes.
The admins in this tier are really nice, they make me feel welcome as if I were their own.
Infact sometimes I pretend that deL and Lemminks are like two fathers to me and dream of them holding me close to them at night, protecting me from any wrongs of the world.
At least that's how I feel about the administration of this tier.
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The Chad is great!
The admins in this tier are really nice, they make me feel welcome as if I were their own.
Infact sometimes I pretend that deL and Lemminks are like two fathers to me and dream of them holding me close to them at night, protecting me from any wrongs of the world.
At least that's how I feel about the administration of this tier.
Totally agree with this.
So friendly and helpful and responds promptly to any concerns and enquiries
Best admins in all leagues?
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Clan Leader of
Protoss
: ericma1123
Lemminks: But the Tier is perfect as it is.
TAdeL: *pimp slap* WE CAN MAKE IT BETTER!
I agree with all the points concerning masters players. This tier is suppose to be around PD level and has a huge skill variation so it's difficult to tell if Master players that are being added are T3 material. However I also agree with whiplash that there shouldn't be any restrictions on who you can field as it does defeat the purpose of the promotion/relagation system
Also I think in terms of walkover, we should make it official that the opponent is given the choice of forcing a wildcard or taking the walkover. If they chose walkover then their team will not be given a choice when they are faced with the risk of a walkover.
Regards to penalties I think your system is absolutely fine.
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Allez TCP!
: TCPLemminks.185
Piglet Pig! Piglet Pig!
Last edited by TCPLemminks; Wed, 1st-Feb-2012 at 7:49 PM.
I think the league is very good at the moment generally. Love all the work del.
On the master leaguer issue. I thought in the initial thread Frogmite or another admin indicated teams were allocated points based on the level of players. I think this can work more formally when combined with other rules
Something off the top of my head to consider
e.g. each player will be allocated points 1 for plat 2 for diamond 5 for masters. Each week a team can only submit a team with total points equal to say 10. This will mean you can have 1 masters, 1 diamond and 3 plats OR you can have 5 diamonds (obviously the exact number can be played around with). This way there is no point having too many masters, if anything it's more beneficial to have lots of diamond and plat players.
OR
Something like after initial team roster and tier seating, players can only be subed for players of the same rank.
I thought of using a points system like that dracover but the trouble is in these lower tiers so much depends on whether people can turn up or not, like having other commitments so I don't want to restrict who can play even further. One sided matches are better than walkovers, after all.
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Brendan "TAdeL" Ferguson Clan TA | Twitter | YouTube
i think 2-4 is a good number, you can add any new recruits (more than 3 recruits in such a short period and you're probably either accepting anyone or abusing the system)
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Should Masters players cost 2 sub points?
i don't see why they should
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Should subs have a time limit (no less than 24hrs before match)
YES!!! one of our players spent 5 days preparing for a plat protoss only to end up being told he was facing a high diamond zerg (his worst MU) who wasn't even on the roster as the games started. anyone using a player they added that day is either incredibly disorganised or abusing the system imo.
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Should subs have a 'quarantine' period where they can only be used the week after they are added to the roster?
i think that should be implemented
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Are 8 subs enough/too much for the season?
i think it's too much, in a 10 week season(ish?) they're going to get abused by a team that's organised to have the right 5 players show up at least twice
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Masters players being allowed when some teams have Platinum players
teams were ranked into divisions, some were barely on the cutoff will do really well or struggle within their divisions. the promotions system between seasons will sort this out. none of this should be a surprise to teams who signed up.
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Lower league players like platinums will not be used
each team can only use 5 players each week, this was never a secret. if a player signed up with a team that has 5 'better' players who are all available every week then they'll have to improve if they want to be selected. i seriously doubt any team signed up players they have no intention of using. if players want guaranteed tournament games there are plenty of individual tournaments every week.
unrelated, one of the main reasons i liked the all kill format was lower skilled players still had a reasonable chance to play (and benefit their team) if they trained as a sniper in a certain matchup.
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Related to having masters players in the rosters, it means Plat players don't get as much of a run and may go unused almost all season. Currently this is not seen as a problem in need of revising yet as teams can take the league as casually or competitively as they like but possible solutions include enforcing at least 1 platinum player per lineup.
this has a high probality of causing more problems than it solves imo and i would be strongly opposed to any rules of this nature
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Player cap of 15 per team
i don't see it as a major issue, as long as the limit is 10 or above
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Map pool (Ladder, MLG, GSL)
steppes of war, xel naga and abyssal please i think there are too many maps in the pool this season though
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Game format (draws, no all-kill, etc.)
same as now but add in a 2v2 worth 1 point to eliminate draws
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Admins
all suggestions are meant for next season, i am strongly opposed to any changes in rules mid season.
edit: sorry about the formatting
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i guess i need to learn how to play now...
Something off the top of my head to consider
e.g. each player will be allocated points 1 for plat 2 for diamond 5 for masters. Each week a team can only submit a team with total points equal to say 10. This will mean you can have 1 masters, 1 diamond and 3 plats OR you can have 5 diamonds (obviously the exact number can be played around with). This way there is no point having too many masters, if anything it's more beneficial to have lots of diamond and plat players.
i can guarantee you that if something like this is enforced, a ton of players will be deliberately dropping leagues/avoiding promotion.
the winner of this league gets promoted to tier 3, that team should be the one most likely to do well in tier 3. league restriction rules would screw that up.
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i guess i need to learn how to play now...
i can guarantee you that if something like this is enforced, a ton of players will be deliberately dropping leagues/avoiding promotion.
I have to say I've never understood the logic of this. Why would you do this, unless your whole life is the t4 SEACL (I think you have some serious problems if this is true).
At the moment, there is no way of determining tier 3/4 anyway other than leagues. In theory everyone could have tanked rating to play in tier 5. If people tanking rating was a concern the whole tier structure is threatened not just tier 4 games.
I think Del's point about the number of active players is more likely to be an issue.
the goal of any team taking this league seriously is to get promoted to tier 3. (i'm sure plenty are playing much more casually which is fine). taking this more seriously than ladder doesn't imply it's your whole life.
the whole point of the tier system rather than league restrictions is that tanking won't help a team and any teams placed in the wrong division will be moved up/down for the next season
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i guess i need to learn how to play now...
the goal of any team taking this league seriously is to get promoted to tier 3. (i'm sure plenty are playing much more casually which is fine). taking this more seriously than ladder doesn't imply it's your whole life.
the whole point of the tier system rather than league restrictions is that tanking won't help a team and any teams placed in the wrong division will be moved up/down for the next season
Not sure I get your first point. There's a sure way of getting into tier 3. Pull together a roster of masters players and you will be in tier 3. Why would anyone try to get there by demothing themselves. Winning teir 4 to then be put into teir 3.
Re your points on the tier system generally. I agree tiers 1/2 that this is the case.
However, if your assessment is correct in the lower tiers then we wouldn't have the people complaining about the issue with masters players in the first place.
I think as a community we need to assess what the goal of the lowere tiers are. If your goal is "everyone should improve and try to get into the higher tiers" then yes I agree we can tell those people "deal with it you'll be placed where your skill level is. Get better". The result I think will be similar to ladder system where 1/2 the people who own the game dont ladder.
An example closer to home, we have seen this in the GPD league. I remember in the early days, not only did you have a lot of people generally, you also had lots of golds and plats competing. Now it's basically the same group of diamonds on a weekly basis and the other just dont bother (presumably thinking why bother I have no chance).
Personally I have no issues telling people to deal with it. But objectively speaking, if the goal is to get increased participation from the lower leagues, you can't be doing that.
Just cuz someone is master doesn't mean they will win either, look at my record for example so far in the season. certainly if a master in this tier is consistently rolling people they should be moved to a T3 team.
tournament games are different then ladder, I personally get stupidly nervous and play consistently much worse then i do in a ladder match during tournies. The masters in this teir should be here because they aren't quite that competitive for the next tier either through issue like mine, or they are much more casual.
SEA's Master skill band spreads a lot more then other servers as well, many masters on sea are diamond tops elsewhere. just my thoughts on it anyway
Not sure I get your first point. There's a sure way of getting into tier 3. Pull together a roster of masters players and you will be in tier 3. Why would anyone try to get there by demothing themselves. Winning teir 4 to then be put into teir 3.
purely as an example, with no league restrictions i think my team has a reasonable chance of finishing top two (for a chance to get promoted). with "only 1 master at least 1 plat" rule we would be lucky to finish in the top half (unless some of us deliberately tank our league) and some team with a strong plat player will get into tier 3 next season and complain about having to vs masters/their plat player not getting used.
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However, if your assessment is correct in the lower tiers then we wouldn't have the people complaining about the issue with masters players in the first place.
I think as a community we need to assess what the goal of the lowere tiers are. If your goal is "everyone should improve and try to get into the higher tiers" then yes I agree we can tell those people "deal with it you'll be placed where your skill level is. Get better". The result I think will be similar to ladder system where 1/2 the people who own the game dont ladder.
if people don't want to play competitively there's not really any way to change that. as your ladder example proves, even if you match people skill wise really well (leagues don't indicate skill super well anyway) some people still just won't want to play. when you play any sport you have to accept there is a possibility you may get beaten.
there's always going to be a gap between the strongest team in a tier and the weakest one. the only way to decrease that gap is to make more tiers (and either have shorter seasons or double round robin seasons)
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i guess i need to learn how to play now...
purely as an example, with no league restrictions i think my team has a reasonable chance of finishing top two (for a chance to get promoted). with "only 1 master at least 1 plat" rule we would be lucky to finish in the top half (unless some of us deliberately tank our league) and some team with a strong plat player will get into tier 3 next season and complain about having to vs masters/their plat player not getting used.
So you're against it cause it's not good for your team? What team that moves from tier 4 to tier 3 in one season legitamately thinks they have a chance in tier 3? If you were good enough to compete in tier 3 you would have been put there already. I would assume the teams in tier 4 would assume if they promote they would also demote equally as fast.
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Originally Posted by Zealo
if people don't want to play competitively there's not really any way to change that. as your ladder example proves, even if you match people skill wise really well (leagues don't indicate skill super well anyway) some people still just won't want to play. when you play any sport you have to accept there is a possibility you may get beaten.
there's always going to be a gap between the strongest team in a tier and the weakest one. the only way to decrease that gap is to make more tiers (and either have shorter seasons or double round robin seasons)
I agree with you're general point about the competitiveness of players. I made that very point in the post before. However, I don't think it's beneficial to say "oh there's always going to be people like that move on". I think we need practical solutions. The length of a season isnt going to change unless teir 1 and 2 changes. The number of tiers isnt going to change unless theres more admins to do the work.
i'm against league restrictions on principle, if you come up with a situation where it would help my team i would be against it then too.
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If you were good enough to compete in tier 3 you would have been put there already. I would assume the teams in tier 4 would assume if they promote they would also demote equally as fast.
i believe that is correct. i have no idea what your point is though.
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However, I don't think it's beneficial to say "oh there's always going to be people like that move on". I think we need practical solutions.
can you define the problem better first?
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i guess i need to learn how to play now...
i'm against league restrictions on principle, if you come up with a situation where it would help my team i would be against it then too.
What principle is that? You dont like putting handicaps in the league structure?
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Originally Posted by Zealo
i believe that is correct. i have no idea what your point is though.
My point was in reference to your saying that you can have situations with teams using plats going to tier 3 then they will lose/complain. My point is no matter which team moves up you will have this situation and therefore the scenario is irrelevant. The team moving up will most likely lose in tier 3 regardless.
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Originally Posted by Zealo
can you define the problem better first?
The problem is how keep the seas community (the more casual ones in this case given we're talking about tier 4) active and participating.
There are teams who do not feel that they can compete due to their lack of masters, leading to a possibility of a lack of activity from the casual teams.
Questions?
1. Do you care?
2. If yes, then how help casual teams feel like they can play and have fun?
I don't want to put words in your mouth but I think it's pretty obvious that you dont care that these teams have concerns or you think their concerns are silly.
I will say this again. I personally think these ideas are silly. BUT there is a portion of people with the ideas and therefore WILL influence their activity. They WILL drop out over time if they lose every round. They WILL drop out if they feel despair every time they play a round. I dont want the league to die in a few seasons when teams drop out cause only 3-4 teams are really competitive.
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