2015 OSC Finals Format Change (ideas/feedback welcome)
Fresh from a massive 2014, and an amazing Grand Finals weekend, it's all eyes ahead to 2015, and making it ever better.
For 2 years now we've followed the format of top 32 ranked players from the years season > top 8 pre-seeded into a double elim bracket, while 9th-32nd fight it out in groups stages on day 1, top 3 of each group (12 players) move onto day 2. Example this years finals!
Given that OSC is a yearly competition, and ranking/positioning should play a pivotal role, group stages where 9-16th particularly might not make it to day 2, is probably not the most rewarding system for a years hard work. It wasn't so much of an issue in season 1, but given our enormous growth this year, and increased international interest and participation, groups may have become somewhat unbalanced, or will be in the future.
***Also note, this is not the big change/reward for SEA players some might have heard is in the works, that is still to come, so please minimise koreans op, leifeng cups, etc We will get to that in the coming weeks
So here is what i propose for 2015 (Working idea) Idea suggested by deth:
New System
32 Player Finals Series
Players ranked 1-8 in the yearly rankings play off in a round robin group to determine positioning in a 32 Double Elimination bracket.
Players 1-20 Start in the Upper Bracket, 1-8 from group stage seeded into the later rounds
Players 21-32 are matched up first round in the lower bracket, elimination. 6 players knocked out.
LB works as before, with a slight adjustment for number of players and rewarding the group players as per goals
1st + 2nd from group stage cannot finish lower than 5/6th
Upper Bracket example
(Winner's bracket Match 1+2 act as Upper Bracket R5, winners face off in the upper bracket finals.) Lower Bracket example
(Loser's bracket Match 1+2 act as Lower Bracket R7, winners face off in the 3rd/4th place match, and go onto play the person who drops from the winners bracket finals)
- Top 32 Players.
- One Double Elimination Bracket.
- Top 16 players start in the upper bracket with double chance, and play amongst themselves, Bo3 to finals.
- 17-32nd start in the lower bracket, first round amongst themselves. Bo5 games for lower bracket. Elimination.
Example Here (Quickly done, will look a lot better on liquipedia)
It will still be a 2 day event, all upper bracket and lower bracket round 1 on Day 1. Lower R2 to finals Day 2
Old format: Groups > 20 player double elim
60 bo3's day 1 (20 Rounds), 38 bo3's day 2 (8 Rounds)
12 Players eliminated Day 1
New format: 32 player bracket, top 16 double chance, 17-32 lower bracket
16 bo3's (4 rounds), 30 bo5's (9 Rounds)
8 Players eliminated Day 1
Pro's:
- Great reward and incentive to get top 16
- Less chance of rank 32 going in and shaking up groups for example
- One bracket, easier to set times for games, more chance to cast additional series.
- Increased time to prepare for first opponent, since no unpredictability from group stages
- More potential for great series/+comebacks with bo5 elimination match (although not guaranteed)
Con's:
- Less chance of upsets?
- Could only face 1-2 opponents for the whole weekend
First of all I'd like to suck up a bit; This is exactly why you're the ******* best Eddie. Even though there was a lot of flak, you show so much perseverance.
I really like how the thread's structured, and how you've listed very reasonable pro's and con's, so here's my feedback for the finals format~~
The main thing that stands out is the fact that yes, you could only play 1-2 people the entire weekend if you're at the bottom of the 32 spectrum.
I do still favour this over the old format, makes it easier for a few people to get games done and they won't go on massive losing streaks that ruin their mindset for the rest of the tournament. :/
I think the main piece of feedback you're going to get, which I agree to, is having only a top 16 finals.
I think there will be a bit of growth next year, however, with a lot of challengers stepping up to the plate and really getting some points on the board. So that's why either 16 or this new 32 format will work in my opinion.
Pro's of 16 -
- Balls to the walls competition/drive all year long. People around 16-30 will be desperately trying to get points all year.
- More of a "WCS Global Finals" feel.
- Easier to admin/run. and showcases no absolute slaughters of any players~ everyone's proved they're the best of the best!
Con's -
- Some borderline good players (myself.. strike.. others) might not make it.
- Finals could also see only 1 or 2 games played by top contenders
Thankyou for taking the time to read this, and apologies if there are any mistakes~ i woke up and wrote those straight away >_<
Top 32 is too big, no offense to the 'borderline players' but you really don't deserve to be playing in the region's finals at the end of the year just purely based off participation. getting to the finals should always be a combination of participation and skill.
I really like frustrations Idea of having top 16 sea players and top 16(?) international players playing separate qualifiers at the end of the season and maybe top 4/8 of both get to play in the actual region finals .
Anyways we have a whole year to think about it so I'm sure we'll figure out the best solution next year
Top 16 will be too small, and i think a 2 day event is more rewarding for a tournament of this level. We shall likely see even more players play in OSC tournaments in 2015, more tournaments, more rewards, etc, so it's going to be very hard to just qualify from one or 2 events. As our brand grows, international audiences and players become more aware that OSC exists, and there is an active scene in SEA. Prizepool will increase in 2015, we don't go backwards.
We won't split qualified players up by region. If you're good enough to make top 32, regardless of where you are from you deserve the spot. It will be competitive, and an achievement in itself. I personally would love to see a few EU + NA players involved, but we wont go out of our way to give them a spot. If they finished rank 52 for example, we aren't going to cut the players above them just to meet a quota. Same deal for number of SEA folk and Koreans. Must earn your spot.
We shall continue to try and tip the scales in favour of SEA players, with higher chances to qualify, but you must be prepared to work for it. We won't cut and change the top 32 to make it super easy.
It's important to remember that this isn't a SEA Only tournament, we have heaps of those. WCS, Masters Cups, SEA Rising Star, SEACraft, and more to come in 2015. OSC is about the best players of the year who have qualified from those and international editions of partnered SEA tournaments. Making the top 32 will be a big achievement in itself. As we continue to grow we hope our rankings begin to hold more weight in the international community, and then our best performers gain recognition as a result.
And it's a bit hard to show the full picture of how we plan to additionally help SEA players atm, as that news is coming in the next few weeks. Our focus won't just be on the end of season prizepool, so stay tuned for that!
I really like frustrations Idea of having top 16 sea players and top 16(?) international players playing separate qualifiers at the end of the season and maybe top 4/8 of both get to play in the actual region finals .
I think the best way to make it harder for internationals to qualify would be make SEA Only tournaments contain more OSC points than international invited tournaments. This would mean for them to qualify, they would have to participate in the majority of the international tourneys and not just one or two. Would also mean SEA players will be making up the majority of the top 32,
2 cents from a non pro player.
I love that the format is being shaken up, regardless of the way it was ran this year. Positives and negatives aside. Great stuff again Eddie!
Personally I like groups. I know that groups inevitably lead to Koreans winning the thing, but I find groups a lot more fun to play in.
What you're saying does make sense though.. I feel like if you don't want Koreans to win the thing just be straight up about it and give them less points or less of a chance to enter the tournament in the first place somehow.
I quite liked the format, as for qualifying it does seem a little silly for a kespa / code S level Korean to qualify from one tournament.
Like what Pezz said perhaps the answer is simply offer international players (specifically KR and perhaps EU) less points than SEA region players in OSC supported tournaments so that if they want to be in the finals of a several thousand dollar tournament (with oceania all over the branding) they would need to be a part of the OSC circuit all year round.
Tournament point allocations are being reviewed, so that will take care of itself. International editions are usually harder, bigger, and have larger prizepools, so should in fairness have more points in total than smaller cups.
There will also be new ways for SEA Only players to earn points
It doesn't have to be a SEA player winning OSC, in fact, it's probably unlikely/very hard (amazing achievement if so!), it's about who is the best from who has qualified throughout the year, (And yes less one off heavy point tournaments/qualifying from one tournament.) It's the pedestal finals event to bring attention to our region, and attract continued interest and competition throughout the year.
I do like groups, but i think new bracket is a greater reward to those who finish top 16.
I really like the proposed changes. This will ensure players that weren't very active and just scrape in (Life/Taeja/Solar etc) can't knock out the top 16 until they grand finals. So the top 16 players get a big reward for their points. Awesome work Eddie keep it up.
I really apologise for the formatting in advance, I will not be able to live up to the standards of St. Eddie, StarCraft Pope.
I had a long think about what we want from a tournament that brings our scene to a conclusion at year's end. The main points I came up with were as follows:
1. Genuine reward for participation throughout the year through seeding.
2. Guaranteeing more series of SEA players vs Koreans and other pros.
3. Equitable distribution of games required to play to advance to different stages of "cashing" within the tournament.
4. Avoid variance as much as possible with the occurance of stacked groups and areas of the bracket.
So with that in mind, I constructed a new style of bracket, tailor made in a style I would you guys to tear down, break, discuss and debate.
Top 8 from OSC rankings play in a 8 player group, Round-Robin style.
Group consists of 7 x bo3's for each of the 8 players to determine seeding, 1st to 8th, into the Upper Bracket (written in red)
7th to 22nd from OSC rankings must win 6 consecutive Bo3's to make it through to Grand Finals (any series loss means a drop to LB).
Lower Bracket standard format.
Also suggesting Bo5 finals. This was cried for in chat and I must admit I was disappointed the Grand Finals weren't QUITE as epic and grand as they should have been.
Total Games Played:
28 Bo3's in Group Stages
21 Bo3's in Upper Bracket
29 Bo3's in Lower Bracket
Bo5 LB Semi and 2x Bo5 Grandfinal suggested.
My Thoughts:
This format may end up addressing some of the aforementioned goals in various ways. The group stages mean we don't lose a bunch of potential series from players getting knocked out in 2 series.
Players that have invested all year into playing the OSC and ranking consistently are guaranteed to play at least 9 series, opposed to 2. Helps to cut down on variance and bad luck with seeding/initial bracket opponents.
Seeding is meaningful, even after group stages. The top 8 OSC players are spread out throughout the bracket, which should encourage more streamed games and variety in matches with players coming up through the bracket versus our year-long champions.
Lower bracket functioning normally because, what ain't broke, ya know?
Similar number of wins required for Group Players (1st to 8th Seed) and UB Players (7th to 22nd) to advance to GF, still relatively equitable depending on player skill. Group players overall must win more games, but have a better chance of being seeded further in bracket and closer to money.
Thoughts?
*A/N: I'm aware of the discrepancy between where the losers go in the bracket upon being knocked from UB to LB etc, this is a proof of concept only and isn't meant to be final.
Last edited by deth; Mon, 22nd-Dec-2014 at 11:26 PM.
I like the upper bracket! Really rewards Top 8 with more games/and potential to better their position. 7th-8th in group only fall back to the rest of the pack, with double life remaining. Not so bad.
I'm not a fan of the number 38. 'Top 38', but i think the only other way to do it with the above idea is to cut it to 'Top 30' and have players ranked 23-30 start with the losers of Upper Bracket R1.
However, this format only gives players ranked 23-30 one bo3. With 38, 8 players would also only get one bo3. So getting top 22 would be a huge deal, and top 8 even more massive!
32 Player tournament.
7th and 8th from Groups, if they remain in the tournament, play 2 less Bo3's (+equality) (+Logistically, doesn't hold up the UB and they can be played simultaneously as required).
LB works as before, with a slight adjustment for number of players and rewarding the group players as per goals.
The seeding in this is completely messed up. I know. Again, this is a proof of concept and much work would need to be done to fix seeding in the bracket and make it look pretty later.
I'm a fan of that revised set up, puts the number back down to 32 players which is a number that makes sense and also means that Koreans will either need to to commit to OSC for the whole season or play a whole tonne of bo3s to make it anywhere near the semis and beyond which is almost guaranteed to have a SEA player in a bo5... Which afaik is pretty much the only issue I could see with OSC 2014.
Definitely like the idea of bo5 semis + final btw, it's my favourite kind of final WCS / ESL do it for a reason and it's cause it's HYPE AS BALLS
I think Deths idea is better than the one i suggested, so will withdraw mine
- Still utilises a group stage, where no players are eliminated, but the top 8 play off for positioning. More games to show off our best players, greater chance for them at increased $'s.
- 'Top 32'
- Greater reward for placing highly in yearly rankings
- Only 6 people face immediate elimination in the lower bracket, compared to 8.
- Unique!
Would like to look at a way that doesn't see 6 people eliminated in a single series, so put your thinking caps on!
This might be a little easier to visualise Deths new format (excuse the messy writing):
(1-8 dependant on group placings) Upper Bracket example
(Winner's bracket Match 1+2 act as Upper Bracket R5, winners face off in the upper bracket finals.) Lower Bracket example
(Loser's bracket Match 1+2 act as Lower Bracket R7, winners face off in the 3rd/4th place match, and go onto play the person who drops from the winners bracket finals)
That is my example bracket. Players are just the top 32 OSC points, as Eddie said there would be a group stage to decide the seeding. I understand it's a clusterfuck so let me explain a bit. The initial problem with the bracket posted above was that there was no room on a standard 32DE bracket for the 1st/2nd seeds , so i added 2 extra matches down the bottom as a "winners round 5". This needed a lower bracket so there's a "lower bracket round 7" down there as well.
The next issue was fitting everyone into the loser's bracket. In squeezing everyone in, we were forced to give up some of the advantage that 7/8th would have originally gotten. HOWEVER we are looking at other ways we can give 7/8th an advantage for their hard work in beating out the other 24 players. Suggestions are welcome. One idea I have is letting them pick the match they want to play the winner of, so say MK doesnt want to play the winner of Solar v Probe, he could swap the Pezz/Wally match there instead, which will allow him to play the winner of Pezz/Wally instead and Solar/Probe will play winner of Sage/Fenner.
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Namakaye-I GOT THIS!! Part of x5's Academy and Clans IXL and sR 2.0. herO #1. Editor
We're looking for ideas on how we can reward the highest seeds even more. Currently 1-8th at the end of the year will be put in a round robin group, and play for positioning in the bracket. These players would be guaranteed an increased $ reward from the first round, due to their work throughout the year earning them an upper bracket spot, as well as seeding deeper in the bracket.
After positions have been determined:
If 7/8th lost both their series they'd still finish 17/20th overall
If 3/4/5/6th lost both their series they'd still finish 12/16th overall
If 1st/2nd lost both their series they'd still finish 5/6th overall
($'s will be paid to 32nd place, and increase each round)
However, for this group round robin they basically all start equal. Ideally i'd like to reward 1st-4th even more, as 1st might put in a lot more effort/have more victories throughout the year compared to 8th.
Open to a format change for these top 8 players, but it still must be completed in one day.
One new idea i'm thinking of is having 2 gsl style groups.
Allow 1st place to select either an opponent to join his group or, he can select someone he doesn't want to play to join 2nd places group.
Then 2nd place can do likewise. We continue 3-5th until groups are full
Example via current rankings (Will likely change as the year progresses)
(Trying to be tactical - here's my guess at predictions)
1. EnDerr: HuK to group 2
2. Arthur: Azure to group 2
3. PsiArc: PsiArc to group 1
4. Blysk: Blysk to group 1
5. DemiLove to group 1
iaguz to group 2.
Seed 1 + 2 can then select their starting opponent from each group.
A.
EnDerr v PsiArc
Blysk v DemiLove
B.
Arthur v Azure
HuK v iaguz
Pros: Rewards seeding even more. Some tactical decisions/rivalries, etc.
1st and 2nd don't play each other
Cons: Less games for each player/fans (2-3 for each player compared to 7.) - Maybe a pro?
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